#258629 - 08/17/04 08:13 AM
Re: Are story focused RPGs dying out?
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fable
 Orc
Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 430
Loc: Blefescu
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I could see it working -- very, very remotely -- if the gamer is familiar with a language that uses symbols to communicate (Egyptian, modern Chinese because, yes, Chinese alphabets are made up of "pictures").
You mean pictograms. Modern Egyptians do not use a pictographic language, but I know what you mean. Languages start with pictograms for each concept, then typically move into a stage where individual syllables are represented by increasingly abstract pictograms. They then move to what can be briefly called a "one sound=one letter" format. Of course, languages can stop anywhere along this line, and have, as you point out. Chinese and Japanese are examples of the first stage. But we all use symbols every day, usually without being aware how common they are in our lives. And words as such are translated by our minds into symbols or series of symbols during mental processing.
But uh, for most people, I think the response would be: WTF is this?
You don't understand that a "house" in the IE button bar stands for your designated homepage, or that a red X means "stop"? You have to scroll down to read game titles you've got in folder, rather than selecting by icon? My point is simply that current usage sets the terms of familiarity. Crawford argued (pretty passionately, it has to be said) for a uniform language of symbols which would make it easy to communicate emotions, not just actions and items, in games. I suspect if his idea had been taken up during the formative years of computer gaming, it would not have remained in that original state. Too many developers would have had input, and the idea would have changed to something a bit more intuitive. For example, we might have had the option to hit a given key combination and get a word representing each symbol, instead of the symbol. Had this happened, "WTF" (which is a symbol, instantly recognizable once you know the meaning without having to process the individual letters) might have been a modern response of someone reading the incredibly stiff, outtrageously two-dimensional conversation trees that pass for dialog in modern computer games. 
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#258630 - 08/17/04 08:17 AM
Re: Are story focused RPGs dying out?
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fable
Orc
Registered: 05/03/04
Posts: 430
Loc: Blefescu
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Then I wouldn't be included in "most people".
If I recall correctly, the upcoming Xbox RPG "Fable" will feature a rather similar conversation, except that it's mostly emotions you combine.
I am afraid I know little of that. What about you, errr, fable-forummember?
Heh.  I know only what you've probably read. It sounds like a revival of Crawford's idea, which wouldn't be surprising; in this business, everything is offered up as revolutionary in the belief of PR departments that gamers have memories which only go back two years at most. I am hoping to find out more before Fable appears, though, and if I do, I'll post a separate thread about it.
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#258631 - 08/17/04 09:56 AM
Re: Are story focused RPGs dying out?
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Winterfox
Knight
Registered: 03/10/03
Posts: 692
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Fable: You know what a pain it is to learn written Chinese (or Japanese kanji), right? Even native speakers have difficulties with them. How willing, do you think, would a gamer be to learn a whole new "language" just to play a game? Unless such a "language" has practical uses in activities other than gaming, I find the prospect of anyone having the dedication to familiarize themselves with such a system of communication highly dubious. Moreover, images can generate different interpretations. Take this, for instance: in heraldry, the color purple implies nobility or royalty, but in my home country, the color stands for jealousy. A human head implies honor; a leg or a foot implies stability; a snake implies wisdom, but I find it unlikely that these will be the first meanings that come to the minds of people who haven't had heraldric studies. (The snake will probably be taken entirely the wrong way.) To borrow a quote from Ed Greenwood, "Hamlet published in Klingon is great fun, but isn’t going to hit the bestseller lists, because your average American reader can’t understand or read Klingon, and doesn’t want to; the same goes for Dr. Seuss done in Latin."
DATD said:
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Then I wouldn't be included in "most people".
That's nice. But can you claim to buy, oh, a few thousand copies of a game? Face it; most people are, like it or not, the ones that matter. Companies may very well want to work on ideals, but the cold hard fact is that they need to make a living.
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#258632 - 08/17/04 10:18 AM
Re: Are story focused RPGs dying out?
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MASTER_GUROTH
 Knight
Registered: 08/09/04
Posts: 882
Loc: Somewhere, Anywhere, At the mi...
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#258634 - 08/17/04 01:03 PM
Re: Are story focused RPGs dying out?
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Winterfox
Knight
Registered: 03/10/03
Posts: 692
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"My hed iz pastede on yay"?
Translations in various languages and dialects.
There's a link to its origins (re: Crystal Gamgee wank), but Journalfen isn't working at the moment, but it should be up soon and be here. If not, you can have this instead. In certain circles, the joke will never quite die. The word "pasted" has never been the same for me since.
DATD said:
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A pink curved heart means 'love' and a detailed, bloody human heart means 'slaughter/murder'.
Er, no, if you want to know. A heart, in heraldric symbolism, means charity and sincerity. Besides, a pink curved heart may mean love, but what kind of love? Sisterly? Platonic? Friendship? Parental? What about a red, green, purple, blue, turquoise or orange heart?
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I seriously think it is possible to create a universal symbol language which even aliens, with their crop-circles could understand.
Like I said, who's willing to dedicate him/herself to the creation of this language? And how many consumers are willing to learn it? Besides, it will never quite, IMO, be eloquent enough to convey the finer nuances (diction, synonyms, etc.) of the kind of written languages are are more familiar with. So yes, give me those "stiff", "two-dimensional" dialogue trees in place of symbols that can only communicate the most rudimentary of intentions any time.
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#258640 - 08/18/04 10:01 PM
Re: Are story focused RPGs dying out?
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DEATHATTHEDOOR
Warlord
Registered: 06/26/03
Posts: 3553
Loc: Presumed missing
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Quote:
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How would you define a Role Playing Game?
- story based (can't roleplay if there is no some stucking story)... and dialog-based as it is still probably the best way to serve the progressive revealing of a story...
- world based and by world I mean interacting in all ways (interacting events and so interacting quests but not only, interacting PCs/NPCs, interacting NPCs)... because you can't roleplay without knowing where you're roleplaying...
("where" in a real large meaning here, not just the geographical one)... and there i think dialog has to play a more important parts that it plays in more than one labelled RPG game...
Then it would mean BG&E is a true RPG. Nevertheless, there is no or numerical stats in BG&E. You can find small objects which increase the health/attack rate/give abilities to/of the member carrying them but that would be all.
I always thought of RPGs as games with a customizable character, a stat page and an inventory with a paper doll, so for me, BG&E is not trully a role-playing game. Nevertheless, it's fun, hilarious and addictive, with many innovative elements and genre crossovers. The characters are memorable, the story is good and the graphics are gorgeous.
That's what I wanted Anachronox to be; at least combat-wise.
_________________________
Currently known as DevDict
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#258641 - 08/18/04 11:17 PM
Re: Are story focused RPGs dying out?
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crusader
 Warrior
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 272
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Now back on topic: can you consider Beyond Good and Evil as an RPG?
How would you define a Role Playing Game?
at its barest minimum, a game that will let you do anything you want, be anyone you desire under the context of a good storyline, and yet still be able to finish the game without any hitches.
rpg's aren't dying; they will always have a niche market. if you have a good grip on the market, you'll always survive from a business standpoint, even if it's just a niche market and not a mass market.
however, i do believe that the rpg segment of the gaming market is in a dismal state presently. there are only a few good ones out there. and the ones that are good, come few and far in between. given the long gestation period of such games, it becomes more imperative that an rpg should deliver more than what it promised. it has to bring out the goodies that would compel people to buy and play it. and not just play it once, but play it with a passion. what do i mean by that?
any rpgamer will tell you that a good story is required for an immersive rpg. that is a given. i have to add that any developer should look beyond a compelling storyline. they have to come out with guns blazing, so to speak. the story/plot should be just a blueprint for a good game. it should just lay the foundation, as in building a house. the game must have cool items, ones that will make you drool over when you sleep at night. the game must have killer skills that a character can develop over the course of his life. skills that you would like to see over and over again in action as you replay the game because it gives you the feeling of being powerful, of being rewarded for having invested a lot of time (and money) into playing. the game must have interesting monsters, (not just the usual) opponents that you have to make the best use of your skills and the most out of your items to defeat. monsters/opponents that are difficult to beat, but not impossible, if you have developed the character. such will be the test of whether you've made a good character or not. let's face it, if you make a game too difficult or near impossible to beat, casual gamers will be turned off, i tell you. the difficulties of good rpg's level also as you progress in the story. meaning, it gets tougher as your level improves, and not inversely proportional, too hard at the beginning when you're just starting only to get easier in the end when you feel invincible. a good rpg must have a combat system that is manageable and not a chore to learn, yet able to hold the interest of the gamer.
of course, interesting dialogue options and outstanding music should be standards in a good rpg.
i've seen a lot of rpg's being advertised as having a good storyline, only to falter on the other aspects of the game.
_________________________
"what we see with our eyes alone isn't necessarily the truth..." - final fantasy tactics
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