Larian Studios Forums Divinity II The Dragon Knight Saga / Flames of Vengeance (English) Divinity II - The Dragon Knight Saga No proof of purchase=illegitamate customer ?

First of all I'm not sure the DKS forum is most appropriate for this question but well I do not think the technical and help forums were.

Here is my issue.
The shop where I bought the game does not give a "physical" proof of purchase (ticket).
They have a database of serial numbers in case of issue with the media so they can find if the game has been bought in their shop should you have to bring it back.
This was not an issue until a few years ago.
But what about games like DKS with limited number of installs/activations ?
When I reach this limit I will have to give a proof of purchase so that the publisher grants me the right to use the game I bought.
I could go to the shop and arrange with them, but this means I can't immediately get fun with the game on the new PC.
And what if the shop has closed in the meantime ?

Imarion

Hello,

There's multiple answers to that question:

First of all, I'm no big fan of DRM myself. I'll admit that I had to download a crack for certain games I bought because I couldn't get the DRM to work.

That said, the DRM is something most publishers insist on and a bonus for a developer is that online activation systems do allow more transparency in terms of what the actual sales are. It helps in the discussion that always arise in terms of how many units were actually sold, which is important to developers because that amount determines how we earn our living.  

To answer your question, In the past we always removed the DRM from our games after a certain amount of time and this will be no different here.

In the unlikely event that we aren't around anymore by the time that happens, then the publisher will most likely be around.

In the unlikely event that the publisher isn't around anymore, the activation servers which are hosted by Sony should still be around.

In the unlikely event that Sony isn't around anymore, then there's always the opportunity to get a crack (though the current ones are unstable at best so they'll have to work a bit harder )

In the unlikely event that there's no cracks around anymore, well, then I think you might have problem, but I think the chances of a retail shop closing are a lot higher.

Hope that helps

if you dont like DRM,then why the hell you (all from Larian) use it in DV 2: DKS xD.
(atleast,i have been told the game uses DRM,but with a legit key your able to start the game without the cd in the drive. :P)

The publisher is the one that wants the DRM.

Anyways, when ever I had to call to get activation back for a game, it was always a quick phone call, they would just ask me for some code that the game is showing me, and they would give me a code back to put in the game. They didn't ask me any questions or ask for any proof, they just asked for the code I am seeing on the screen.

Another thing to keep in mind as well. If you are going to make a major hardware change, uninstall using the game uninstaller first, cause that gives you an activation back. If you format your computer and reinstall everything, but it is the same computer, reactivating the game does not take an activation away. The activations are tied to your hardware. For my past games, changing the Motherboard is a major change, but just changing the CPU or the Graphics card was not considered a major change, but changing out both the Graphics card and the CPU would be considered a major change.

Thanks for the very quick answers.
They are indeed reassuring.

I guess by the time you remove the DRM I will not have used all activations as I do not change computer so often.

To answer eisberg: usually when I change the computer I do not de-install previous software. It was not an issue before this kind of limited activation-DRM. And I still feel I shouldn't do it. It is a constraint and legit customer should not have constraints. But we should not debate that here

Also I do not like the 3rd solution, not only for what it underlies.
But also:
1) you never know what kind of trojans or what else are lurking.
2) usually they are not up to date with the latest patch.
3) this is not the software intended and validated by the developer.
4) the performance of the game degrades in the long run (at least it is written so in the book))

Imarion

Surely there are better ways to bloody do this? Look at Steam, none of those reasons explain why on earth the Steam version would have SecuROM at all. Last time I checked, Steam offered detailed sale records to developers and publishers.

"Ego Draconis" didn't require any SecuROM installation, so why on earth would "The Dragon Knight Saga" require it on the same platform? It makes no sense and only pisses off potential customers...

Amen Lar_g.



Mromson,
Use the Larian vault. All they want is activation and you can do that via phone if you want. That is how I purchased it. You'll get the serial key that you need via E-mail and confirmation page after purchase.

No, I shall not be dictated by a piece of shit software such as SecuROM that serves no purpose whatsoever beyond making the publishers feel better about themselves. Especially when it comes with freaking install limits. I should not have to call anyone EVER to get my game to bloody work. It has already been established that there are easier ways to obtain the game - so I shouldn't have to put up with some publishers bullshit.

@Mromson well, use the "easier ways" but don't feel entitled to prance around in developer's forum then. Do you know how hard it is for a small developer like Larian to find a publisher at all? If they finally do get one, who happens to demand DRM and Securom specifically do you really think the dev is in any position to say no to this?

The Dev is a position to say no to anything, especially when the developer has no reason to agree with the publishers demands concerning Steam, which already has it's own Steam-DRM and sale tracking.

As a consumer, I don't give a rats ass what the developer has problems with. It's not my place to care - having a demanding publisher is no reason to insult your consumers.

I've not read anything insulting on this thread the only one being insulting & rude is you so if you don't have anything nice or polite to say shut the hell up. The dev's are doing what thay can & thay have been awnsering peoples questions when thay can so stop your ranting your making yourself sound like an idiot.

You are way too CUDDLY Divine Avenger. What the point to randomly insult other ppl?

Securom also encrypts our exe which makes it harder to reverse-engineer. Publishers may like the anti-piracy idea, developers can sleep at night because they believe their code is somewhat more secure.



Actually, I don't feel there are install limits. Every time you uninstall the game, you get an activation back. If you uninstall, an activation is revoked. So you can actually install the game on three different computers. If you uninstall all three of them, three installs are revoked and you can still install the game three times.

@ Kein: I think you made a typo and I will edit your post.

ForkTong


Well... we all know it's a... "an excrements of teh bull", coz the game was hacked @ the next day of the release ;P Same for almost every game.


Cuddly troll? Ooooookay :P

I can pray to god every day and hope that I'll get a big black Ferrari tomorrow - but wishing won't make it so. What one believes should have no inclination upon how you treat your customers.



Yeah, except for the fact that you have to be INTERNETT connected to UNINSTALL your bloody game. Imagine if every game and software required such ridiculous measures? When I wish to wipe my HDD, why should I have to worry about uninstalling at all? Why should I be construed by artificial limits when I wish to remove the game installation?

You can't argue that it's not ridiculous.

Lar_g:

I'm a fellow designer / owner of a small indie company that wishes to remain "under the radar" until we actually have a few releases. So I have one particular question for you that has been bugging me.

Both Divinity II games were available on "torrent websites" (German releases first, English second) I want to guesstimate about 1 to 2 days after release. Their methods being reverse engineered Executables and DLL files. Borderlands also uses SecuROM as well, at least in 2 of their DLCs and both were available not even a week after they came out. If you want a separate DRM method, I could say Star Craft II but the beta for that was cracked with a completely fresh programmed interface to launch the solo maps. So let me get this straight though, you are simply using a confirmed-obtrusive program (http://reclaimyourgame.com/content.php?625-Gothic-4-ArcaniA-using-SecuROM-7 for example) that is costing you sales just on the basis that it is providing you sales figures to your publishers. FURTHERMORE, you are doing on this on another digital platform (Steam in this instance) which as an advertisement and incentive to using their services (http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/publishingservices.php) is to PROVIDE your sales figures for you.

Please explain the logic in this?

The SecuROM solution doesn't work. Nor TAGES, nor Ubisoft's, nor StarForce.

I as a fellow designer do not see the logic in using it and see it more as a deterrent to customers wanting to purchase your product. The only thieves that are being deterred are those that approach this from a "durp durp" DVD-R approach. The rest of them go to a torrent.

The sales figures argument DOES work for the retail option, and the unobtrusive method there is welcome, just a disc check. No problem. But limiting installs on a proven non-obtrusive DRM-POS system is like wearing, figuratively, 2 condoms. It's unappealing and both parties suffer for it.

I know not much I say will sway anyone's opinion or change anything but it is something to think of.

It really just sounds like more money out of your pocket just to satisfy a under-the-table-deal that a publisher has with the DRM manufacturer because their day is ending with methods like Steam, Impulse, GoG and the like growing in popularity.

So, back to my original question, was this a choice by the developers? Or do the publishers have you guys by the nuts on this one? Let's be honest, I've been wanting to crack this for a while.

I don't think he can or should. He is a developer, not the publisher. And SecuROM/DRM is a publisher's choice after all.

Actually i think it is like this:

No securom = no publisher = no money = no game

I take it that means they would not find Impulse::Reactor to be an acceptable DRM?

Sorry to counter-act you on this but this is becoming less and less true day by day and here's why:

NPD was once a reliable source of sales of all gaming consoles and has been falsely (or rather, ignorantly) reporting for 2 straight years that PC Gaming has been dying due to it's lack of sales. These sales however also completely and utterly failed to show Steam, Impulse, GOG, and etc. sales figures as well as Amazon. Only NOW are they actually figuring in the sales figures from these and at least estimating from Steam. Steam is owned by Valve, Valve isn't publicly traded hence has no obligation to show these sales figures, however, they do show how many people are playing what game and hence it's very possible to gather sales figure estimates from that. Furthermore, B&M (Brick & Mortar) places are pulling back sales of PC Games altogether (an inside source of Gamestop, whom is also a subsidiary of EB Games has confirmed this.)

My point is this: Publishers are no longer needed for PC game sales. I'm pulling this number out of my rear but I want to say that over 70% of game sales are on online distribution methods now instead of B&M. It's THESE online distribution methods that are acting as a publisher for a much smaller share of the profits. Last I checked I believe from an article that Tripwire Interactive (Zombie Driver, Killing Floor, The Ball, etc.) stated that only 15% of their sales were going to Steam, and I've heard elsewhere on forums that this amount goes up to 25%. I have no idea what a publisher yanks from each sale but I'd have to assume that it's much higher.

I do admit I'm a fledgling to the whole market but I also have a fresh pair of eyes to the whole thing and publishers seem to have nothing more to add to PC Gaming. Rather, they detract. I will ALSO admit that I am in the states where the worst bandwidth caps we have to deal with are about 100 or so gigs from Comcast, it might be different in Germany or where this company is located and THAT might be case enough. Please feel free to prove me wrong but the smallish indie company I'm starting is taking a very strict anti-publisher stance only because of the recent digital distribution methods.