Divinity Banner
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#477815 - 01/05/14 05:52 AM Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS
Kamatsu Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
Hi,

I'm just writing this thread because I am concerned that Larian Studios might be tempted to go down the route of putting Divinity: Original Sin (DOS from this point on) up on Steam in a beta stage via the Early Access (EA from now on) program Steam now has.

I feel that this would not do Larian or DOS any favors, and in fact might cause way more problems than it's worth. While putting DOS up for EA will get more word out about the game, and bring in more people to play & test the game... it will also have the affect of bringing in lots of negativity and trouble to the game & community.

The way I see it, if DOS was to up on EA, Larian would have 4 options:

1) Put up a beta version that is free, but incomplete, and gets removed once the game goes for sale.

This would solve the issue of spoiling the game, but guaranteed you'd get complaints that it's not the full product and/or complaints when the game gets removed.

2) Put up a version that is cheap, incomplete and gets taken away when fully released.

You would get complaints when the game gets removed. Guaranteed. You will also get complaints that you have to pay to get into a beta, even if it's only $1-5.

3) Put up the same version as backers get at normal retail price. You will still get complaints that beta's should be free. You'll also run the risk of peeving off backers who had to pay way higher than this price to get beta access.

4) Put up the beta at the same price level as backers had to pay to access beta. This would hugely, hugely peeve off the steam crowd and cause a huge ongoing stink on the discussion forums that DOS would be forever tainted by it.

I'm making this post after watching what's happened to Wasteland 2 over the past few weeks, and ever since it was put up for EA at basically the same price point as backers had to pay to get Beta. It's *not* pretty just how many threads in the W2 discussion forums that go for pages long complaining about how expensive it is, paid beta's suck, they'll never be buying it no matter how good it ends up, etc.

After seeing that basically every new thread in their forums for the past week has been complaints about it being beta, that it's so expensive for a beta, asking if the game will ever get finished, that it should be free, complaining about EA games/system, etc.

I just don't want Larian Studio's to go down this route... as attractive as EA might seem, right now Steam is flooded with EA games... and the flood doesn't seem to be letting up. Sadly, the sheer number of EA games being released is fast turning ppl completely against any/all EA games. I think it would do Larian and DOS way more harm to release DOS via EA prior to release than any good that will come from it.

At least right now with just backers playing and testing the game, they KNOW they have people invested in making the game as great as possible. Ppl who buy on Steam... are not so invested, and are not reliable. In fact, I've seen a pathetic amount of whinging & whining on the W2 forums about how buggy it is, how many crash's they have and how dare they charge for an obviously incomplete/unfinished product - even though the game is clearly listed as an EA game in Beta... ppl do *not* read store pages.

Here's some of the threads flooding the W2 steam discussions right now - out of the 1st user made 30 threads:

Early access 40 bucks? its time to stop now.
$60 top-down RPG, sides are at critical mass.
Early Access = Beta = Full Price ?
It's getting out of contorl with prices.
Will this game ever be finished
$60 dollar early access?
Consumers aren't investors.
I'll help beta test...
Why charge 60 for beta access and 25 for release???
Dear Dev, please explain: Why Early Access for a story driven game?
Honey pot for sucker bees?
another early-access game?
Is this game worth the money?

So 13 out of the top 30 active user made threads are basically complaints, whinges, whiners, etc about the price point, that it's a beta game, that it's on EA, etc. If you go back these kind of threads are spread throughout the forums.

Also, these kind of complaints are not limited to just W2 forums. You'll see complaints about pricing, EA, incomplete games, will the game ever be finished, etc in all the other EA games as well - just not to the excessive amount that W2 seems to be drawing (due to it's high price point I'd say).

I really hope that Larian waits and only puts DOS up on Steam when it's 100% done & complete. Otherwise I greatly fear there will be a bad backlash against them and DOS for all the above mentioned reason's.

Top
#477820 - 01/05/14 06:32 AM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Kamatsu]
Raze Offline


Registered: 03/10/03
Posts: 21142
Loc: Canada

I believe the plan is just to give beta access with pre-orders (when available).

Top
#477829 - 01/05/14 11:58 AM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Raze]
Aramintai Offline

enthusiast

Registered: 06/27/13
Posts: 381
They'd better not do it like inXile did with Wasteland 2 alpha - it gets so much flack right now both from Steam community and kickstarter backers. From Steam because they're being charged full price for it and people expect a finished game or at least a solid beta. From backers because it is out there available for everyone for a price that is lower than the tier with alpha access. Such a cluster***k.

The only game with early access that I currently like is Blackguards (also a TB RPG btw). The devs are releasing the beta content by chapters each month and therefore it is quite polished. And early access costs less now than the release price. But then again, they don't have to deal with angry backers beause it's not a kickstarter game.


Edited by Aramintai (01/05/14 11:59 AM)

Top
#477838 - 01/05/14 03:28 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Aramintai]
meme Offline

addict

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 588
Yea there has been much complaint on most of the early access games (either the price is too high - but high price is required to 'appease' the kickstarter tiers (planetary and wasteland); or the early access version is not updated timely (might and magic X; they stopped updating early on though my understanding is they took the players feedback to heart for the final game; but you will have to wait for release to find out).
-
The two most successful early access (from what I've read - not played either) have been blackguards (aramintal mentioned this) and starbound. I've been totally impressed with the continual feedback on the steam forum for blackguards (both by the devs and the players; very little negatively and continous updates). Likewise starbound (small indie company) has been extermely positive on nearly all boards I've read (hardforum, steam, ..). Another pair of indie game that seems to be getting mix to positive vibes is gemni 2 and age of decadence.
-
Anyway I wouldn't buy any of those games without first fully understanding what type of game they are and people like/dislike.
-
I realize I've moved off topic. Clearly larian has taken a different strategy since they cancelled the alpha/beta kickstart tiers to provide more freedom and as we can see they are receiving a huge amount of feedback from the current kickstart players; in-fact I would think they would avoid steam alpha/beta just to keep from being overwhelmed by feedback (which the current crop might be close to reaching).

Top
#477839 - 01/05/14 03:57 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: meme]
vonbleak Offline
stranger

Registered: 12/23/13
Posts: 5
If the game is coming out on the 28th Feb - i see no point in doing a early access at all :P

Top
#477840 - 01/05/14 04:12 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: vonbleak]
Cromcrom Offline
addict

Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 505
I doubt it will be released on the 28th of february.

Top
#477846 - 01/05/14 07:32 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Cromcrom]
Rod Lightning Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 07/09/12
Posts: 260
Do you have anything.

ANYTHING at all to back that statement?

Larian almost HAS to commit to that deadline due to legally binding contracts with retailers I think. I'm fairly confident 28 February will be the release date.
_________________________
Look it stands to reason...You can't eat 'cos you don't have a stomach!

Top
#477848 - 01/05/14 08:13 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Rod Lightning]
Cromcrom Offline
addict

Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 505
1/ state of the game, that do have some bugs for now. Not counting if they want to change things to combat, like sven seemed to say.
2/ Editor was "due" in december, it seemed pretty sure by then.
3/ I rather wait some more for a finished and polished product.
4/ Larian seem there own boss, which allowed them so far to create great games, I don't think they are binded by anything except the will to create a Great RPG.
5/ They said 28th of february BEFORE the beta testing begins.

That's why I think the game won't be released on the 28th.

Top
#477883 - 01/06/14 08:20 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Cromcrom]
Robcat Offline

enthusiast

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 295
6/ Swen tweeted that it would be released a bit later if needed.

Source: Larian's Twitter
_________________________
"Love one another and you will be happy. It's as simple and as difficult as that" - Leunig

Top
#477930 - 01/07/14 09:47 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Robcat]
theBlackDragon Offline

enthusiast

Registered: 04/01/13
Posts: 250
Loc: Belgium
Yeah, the amount of retard regarding early access (please don't shorten it to EA, the letters alone make me want to punch something) on Steam is pretty impressive. Most people don't seem to be capable of grasping what they're buying (not really surprising as "alpha" or "beta" probably mean zilch to the layman). There's a big fat sticky post explaining *why* Wasteland 2's early access is priced as it is, but reading is hard I guess (then again, people that are unable or unwilling to read even the big fat sticky with 4 lines of text or so are probably not exactly lost sales for a RPG)

Of course people that are interested in the game will already have bought beta access and if they really want to provide access to people that missed the beta making keys available for sale on their website seems like a much better approach and less likely to attract the typical entitled Steam-drone one finds in the kind of threads you linked above.


On another subject, I'm with the ones thinking Larian won't make the release date, there's still too much work to be done judging by the current beta (for one, the UI needs a lot of work to not be a hindrance). I just don't realistically see it happening, certainly not if it has to be somewhat stable.

Feature creep is Larian's biggest nemesis and it doesn't seem they've beaten him/her/it yet (not that I don't want all the extra goodies, of course, I want it all, and I want it on time! j/k ;)).
_________________________
* as usual this is imho (unless stated otherwise); feel free to disagree, ignore or try to change my mind. Agreeing with me is ofc also allowed, but makes for much worse flamewarsarguments.

It is a full moon night and ... b珥珥珥! ... the Weresheep are out...

Top
#477979 - 01/09/14 03:58 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: theBlackDragon]
Robcat Offline

enthusiast

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 295
Feature creep is a double-edged sword. I find it really hard to fault a company (ie a bunch of people) that put so much heart and effort into their games, considering their end-results as a whole. You've got to admire Larian's daring ambition. While some may prefer more conservative, tightly managed development, I suspect that this also stifles innovation, iteration and creativity. I hope that as Larian continues to grow with experience and available resources, they will become better at fulfilling the scope of their visions, better at wielding that sword.

It's also worth mentioning that having only recently cast off the shackles of publishers and gone independent, Larian are still learning how to optimise the publishing side of things. Original Sin wouldn't be as pressed for time had they known not to tie themselves down with certain sales avenues. Regardless of this, I have high hopes that Original Sin may be their most fulfilled and satisfying game yet. Swen did mention that it has the content density throughout that he has always wanted in an RPG.

Besides, this was kind of the whole point of the kickstarter, to give this game the love it deserves, to throw everything at it to fulfil its vision as much as possible. Will I complain if it needs a few patches post-release, so long as I eventually get an awesome epic RPG stuffed full with features, content, polish and little touches? Hell no. Larian's post-release support has always been excellent, and I tend not to play games immediately upon release anyway, as video-games generally only benefit from the inevitable patching.


Back on topic, I highly doubt that Larian would bother doing steam early access, as I don't think they would want the extra hassle while they are feverishly crunching away finishing up Original Sin for release. I could be mistaken, yet it seems that doing early access on steam requires a substantial commitment to the forums there besides an additional technical and procedural burden. Not to mention the other points already raised in this thread. It doesn't seem worth it and I doubt they will want the distraction.
_________________________
"Love one another and you will be happy. It's as simple and as difficult as that" - Leunig

Top
#477997 - 01/10/14 04:10 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Robcat]
Elwyn Offline



Registered: 12/10/12
Posts: 440
From the Eurogamer interview:

"Divinity: Original Sin has hit alpha, and Larian's currently preparing a version for Steam early access."

Top
#477999 - 01/10/14 05:07 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Elwyn]
meme Offline

addict

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 588

Top
#478007 - 01/11/14 02:35 AM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: meme]
Robcat Offline

enthusiast

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 295
Shows what I know lol. Well, Larian must consider it to be worth it.

Cool article too, thanks for the link smile Every time I read one of these things I'm reminded of why I'm so amped for this game.
_________________________
"Love one another and you will be happy. It's as simple and as difficult as that" - Leunig

Top
#478035 - 01/12/14 02:13 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Robcat]
Kein Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 2022
Loc: Soviet Empire
That's... not really good news.

Top
#478036 - 01/12/14 02:43 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Kein]
Regnox Offline

journeyman

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 71
Loc: Switzerland
As long as they set the price correctly (and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't) I don't think it's bad news.


Edited by Regnox (01/12/14 02:53 PM)

Top
#478043 - 01/12/14 10:51 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Regnox]
Kamatsu Offline
stranger

Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 20
Loc: Australia
To be honest, I am disappointed to see they will be using Steam's Early Access, because of all the reason's I & others have stated. I really hope that it doesn't burn them by doing this.

I hope they have ppl ready to actively mod the Steam Discussion forums, because guaranteed there will be lots of threads being made bashing the game and/or Larian for going Early Access, bashing Early Access, bashing the price (no matter what it's set to), etc.

InXile have stepped up moderation of the Wasteland 2 Discussion forum, but they are still getting threads daily that they are closing because they are whinign about the price, whining about early access, etc. I am also still seeing new threads/comments of similar nature being made on other Early Access games discussion forums as well.

Top
#478050 - 01/13/14 02:31 AM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Regnox]
Kein Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 2022
Loc: Soviet Empire
Originally Posted By: Regnox
As long as they set the price correctly (and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't) I don't think it's bad news.


And what exactly would be the correct price, taking into account some people paid more than 50$ to get it? Go on, tell me.

And then every [YT] reviewer would want to review the game and it will forever stuck as "unfinished RPG with a lot of potential" in the minds of the public. Yeah, great move.

Top
#478052 - 01/13/14 04:37 AM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Kein]
Robcat Offline

enthusiast

Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 295
Hmm, to be a fly on the wall in the meeting that decided upon this...

I dunno if this is a good idea or not, I don't have enough information to feel strongly one way or the other - I would expect/hope Larian does. How long has early access been around for that we can accurately judge for D:OS? What percentage of the market purchases early-access games and to what extent do these people talk about their impressions beyond steam forums? Is there any evidence that the (relatively minor) controversy surrounding Wasteland-2 is actually going to harm (net negative) its long-term reputation or overall sales?

I suspect that if games are good, then they will ultimately speak for themselves. Same goes for the quality of the early-access product. There may be a question about whether the overall effect is positive or negative, yet if when finally released Original Sin is as good as it looks like it will/could be, then who is going to give a shit frankly about any early-access steam quibbling?

In Larian's case any potential backer backlash regarding the pricing will be mitigated by their opening up the alpha to all backers. Did that move even cause any flack? I didn't notice any. Larian is pretty damn good on the PR side of things, my concerns are more that they may be spreading themselves too thin when they really need to be finishing this epic game.

I do wonder what all this early-access hoohah will mean for future kickstarter pitches and pledge rewards. It could be that the idea of asking people to pay money for the privilege of testing your game is inherently flawed, and project creators will have to come up with other better ways of encouraging pledging. It seems like devs should be making a point of including alpha access with all tiers, which is after all what Larian realised was in the best interests of the game. I recall other devs saying the same thing in their kickstarter post-mortems - the free testing and feedback is simply invaluable for small or independent studios.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how it goes, assuming that the article is correct of course. It wouldn't be the first time video game *cough* journalism hasn't been entirely accurate. Maybe Swen only mentioned to the guy in passing that they were considering it. Or maybe Larian needs the money to finish the game ;-) Let's not let the lack of evidence get in the way of wild speculation. I need to stop typing now, this post is getting out of hand... sorry for waffling on :hihi:
_________________________
"Love one another and you will be happy. It's as simple and as difficult as that" - Leunig

Top
#478063 - 01/13/14 01:36 PM Re: Please don't do Steam Early Access with D:OS [Re: Kein]
Stabbey Offline

veteran

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 3447
Originally Posted By: Kein
Originally Posted By: Regnox
As long as they set the price correctly (and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't) I don't think it's bad news.


And what exactly would be the correct price, taking into account some people paid more than 50$ to get it? Go on, tell me.

And then every [YT] reviewer would want to review the game and it will forever stuck as "unfinished RPG with a lot of potential" in the minds of the public. Yeah, great move.


Rightly or wrongly, Larian seems to think that the more publicity, the better, even if it is alpha stuff, that's why they didn't put out any NDA's.

Personally, I don't see the point of doing reviews of unfinished stuff, (let alone "Let's Play's" - what is there to LP?).

However, at this point, it seems clear that Larian vastly overestimated how much they could get done with the Kickstarter funding. They over-promised It's already mid-January, which is when the supposed co-op and beta are supposed to start, but that doesn't seem likely.

You're right that you-tube reviews made by morons will call the game unfinished, but Steam Early Access might be Larian's best shot at actually getting enough money to push back their deadlines enough to finish the game so the OTHER reviewers, the professional ones with integrity, will like the game more.
_________________________
Let's Play Divine Divinity: Some call me a god. Some call me a murderer. I'm both.

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >