Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta Too much non-combat when you reach Cyseal?

Does anyone else feel like there should be some mandatory battles within the town of Cyseal?

Prior to reaching the Cyseal we have the introductory crab battle, an optional guard battle at the bridge, and lastly an orc battle at the beach before the town gates. Of course, everyone has the option of picking fights within the town itself (I suspect many players won't, though) and beyond Cyseal there's a lot of opportunity for combat.

Now, I love the non-combat questing as much as the next RPG fan. But there is a real lack of combat/action between entering the city gates and getting a solid lead on the murder + completing your tour of Homestead.. particularly for characters trying to go the good / lawful route.

In fact, a friend emailed me today with this message:

"..WHEN WILL THERE BE ANY ACTION. I am investigating a murder and there is no end in sight…. I am ready to slay orcs or something… very sick of playing Columbo.."

..and that is not the first friend I've heard yearning for a fight during the murder investigation. Let's face it.. we all like "Divinity - Original Sin" for two reasons: 1) We like RPGs, and 2) we like squad-style, turn-based, tactical combat. The fun-factor drops when one of those elements goes missing for long periods of time.

I think the period of time spent in Cyseal.. ..could really benefit from a battle or two. That's it.. just something to break up the act of running back and forth between locations and NPCs to progress the story. Maybe a bar fight, or assassins attacking the party inside the town at some point, a band of thugs that need to be dealt with, orcs that have snuck into the town, whatever.. just something. Don't alter the time spent inside the town to a total combat-fest, just maybe pepper it with a mandatory fight or two to help with the pacing.

Just my two cents.

You can walk right out of a gate at any time. Picking up the companions takes a minute at most.

As Stabbey said, there is nothing to stop you from leaving town before you have a quest related reason to do so, though there could certainly be a little more combat earlier in the game, and Cyseal does feel a little overwhelming when you first get there (there will be additional map markers added and guidance in the quest log, etc, when certain locations are mentioned).

There may be a tutorial area added before getting to the beach, which could add a bit of combat. Maybe Cyseal needs a dungeon hidden under a statue...

Yes, I'm aware that's an option, but in my opinion it's a poor solution. You're in the town to investigate a murder, and for many players that won't include randomly galavanting across the countryside in search of adventure. At least not until the investigation has pushed them beyond the city gates.

Also, much of the fighting that takes place outside the city is tied to quests picked up within the town itself.

In the end, the game encourages people to spend some time within the town before moving back outside of it. And since Divnity advertises itself as an "RPG with tactical turn based combat" it wouldn't hurt to show both sides of that coin during the lengthy time spent in Cyseal.. especially that early in the game when making the right impression is important, both to the people playing and the people watching "let's play" videos because they're trying to decide whether or not to purchase the game. In the case of the latter, I don't think a short crab battle, a three-orc beach battle, and then an hour+ of courier activity in a town with loads of dialogue is going to hook as many people as it could if the pacing were handled a little better.

Do you have a specific reason why you don't want to see a mandatory battle (or two) taking place inside Cyseal, provided it's written in in a way that makes sense?

I think when you go into that basement they could do something...? Maybe even something stupid like giant rats or some crap just to throw in a fight. Or some ghosts in the graveyard? Or maybe an assassin sent by the killer to stop you?

Just some ideas!

It seems like a solution to a non-existent problem. The game already lets you follow the main quest or not at your leisure. If you get bored, feel free to wander off. Nothing's stopping you but you.

You must talk to Aureus as part of the main quest, and he offers three quest hooks that lead you to combat (granted two are higher level than you can handle). Following the main quest more, you're interrupted by a Fab Five member, who offers you another quest that sends you to combat (although that's even worse for a new guy).

And that's why the option of "following the main quest or not at your leisure" is not as cut and dry a solution as you're making it out to be.

First, just because someone wants to follow the main quest line doesn't automatically mean they're excited about the prospect of not seeing any combat for an hour or three. It shouldn't be a one-or-the-other consequence. A player should be able to play the main quest line and also enjoy combat (fed at a reasonable pace) while doing it. In other words, you shouldn't have to abandon the story and run out of town to enjoy some turn-based tactics.

Second, our characters are barely level 2 when they reach Cyseal, but they can reach level 3 (through questing) by the time the main plot has advanced to the point where it sends them out of town. Meanwhile, the opponents waiting outside of Cyseal start at level 3 (or higher, depending on the gate you choose). The henchman you can pick up in Cyseal are level 3, and unless you're just randomly exploring the town (or know where they are through prior playthroughs), you probably won't meet both of them until you've spent a fair amount of time questing in Cyseal.

In short, despite the option to run off in any random direction at any point, the aim seems to be to get the player to level 3 before they leave Cyseal. That requires spending time in town, time that is boring at least some players who would probably appreciate a combat encounter or two peppered into Cyseal to break up both the dialogue and repetitive running back and forth between NPCs to advance the plot - two components that are going to get less enjoyable with each new playthrough, by the way.

NO

The game in towns feels exactly like it was in Divine Divinity and I want it to stay that way.


What the goddamn FUCKING point of that? A fight for the sake of fight? For no damn apparent reason or blatantly made up reason? If you want DOS to be another mediocre RPG, that features cliche crap here and there, then I think you should quit right now, while it is not too late.

I think you're overreacting, and by more than a little. If the developers had plugged a battle somewhere into Cyseal before ever handing us the game to test.. another orc attack (makes sense), or assassins (you were warned when you arrived that you were being hunted), undead breaking through one of the gates (makes sense).. you probably wouldn't have thought anything of it. I doubt you'd be on here ranting that it ruins the entire game or Cyseal experience.

If you want to relive the Divine Divinity experience, then go play that game. Divinity - Original Sin is supposed to be its own thing.

I definitely understand how it might be more lively if there was combat in town, and I do think there is probably going to be quite a bit of boredom for those on repeat playthroughs without combat for many players, as even I became rather tired of waltzing around town myself after a while.

However, my problem is not -necessarily- that there is no combat in town, but that running around town takes more time than is... interesting, I suppose. My suggestion was just another gate in the marketplace in the center of town with one at every major exit as well.

While I do think there can be a place for starting combat in town, I think it might also feel a little forced with how things are currently. Between the town guard and Arhu's machines, there wouldn't be a nice and smooth place to put some combat in where it wouldn't become overcrowded or feel artificial (except perhaps if you had a fight in esmeralda's basement or something, perhaps? Not sure what you would fight though. If undead got in that would be a major issue for the whole town's safety).


In general, I think it's a bit of a tricky situation. I think it's probably a pretty decent compromise though if we can mitigate runaround though with those waypoints I suggested.

I don't know honestly. If combat can be slipped in nicely I would appreciate it myself. If it just doesn't fit well though, I can also understand that decision.

Relax, Kein. He's talking about something similar to the tavern fight in Baldur's Gate II. I don't see why there has to be such a strict division between Cyseal/non-combat and non-Cyseal/combat, or what this even has to do with being a 'true RPG'.

The problem here is that it's a turn-based game, which means you can't just put trivial encounters everywhere without it becoming annoying. I think if one or more town fights get added, which is a good idea in itself, there needs to be a logical reaosn for them to exist.

The fact that there is no fight in Cyseal give it a feeling of haven, a "security" that you don't have outside.

But ... There is also a murderer ... Somewhere, with nothing making it really credible that one is a murderer. You just discover things and look at the peoples with a different eye.

A wolf among sheep ... Or wolves among sheep... Or sheep among wolves... Or sheep among sheep ? Or is it a dog ? Why not a cat ? And my allergy ?

Then you go outside, you're not "safe" anymore but you know clearly that something is wrong. Weapons unsheathed you go hunting, looking at where you walk so you don't fall on a trap... Trying to take the initiative... You know that there is enemies and you're ready to fight with them...

That's the point of giving a "haven" feeling at Cyseal. The atmosphere is different and you don't know if peoples are dangerous or not, you must try to found that out ... And the more you discover ... (the more you should discover that you're in deep trouble and that someone, something, some try to get you before you get it ... Or maybe you're walking on the palm of it's hand... You can't say, you must try to discover...)

Outside everything or mostly everything try to kill you and that give a bit a security's feeling by itself.

Most people will stay in the city if there are still stuff to do, experience to grab, etc... before chasing the world. You want to be as ready as possible before going to the wildness. It's the Stanley Parable : we do react to some reflexes.

Even if I can understand that you want that game to be different, the thing is, most people will get *a little* bored in this 3hours tunnel of dialog.

They are ways to make a city more alive, take Baldur's Gate 2 for exemple...

But still, I had fun (the first time at last)

Could be awesome... Maybe under a well.. It could lead to mardaneu... Uhm. Not!

It's just me or the quest with evelyn reminds to the old quest in aleroth (divine divinity, magic mirror involved, two healing gems...)?

Oh I'm so romantic sometimes, my heart simply melts down...

Let's not forget that combat opportunities exist within Cyseal, so it's not like the notion should be inconceivable to anyone.

- You can always choose to fight with the guards if you get caught performing criminal activity, but not everyone wants to roleplay that way.

- You can always choose to fight the elder elf, but not everyone wants to resolve the quest in that manner.

- You can always fight the ghost in the graveyard, but that requires failing his test (and currently the combat trigger doesn't appear to be functioning as the journal states a battle was fought, yet he vanishes without ever attacking).

So, while there are combat opportunities within the town for people who choose to handle every NPC encounter with force (or incompetence), the problem is there are no combat opportunities within the town for players who respond to the NPC more passively. However, just because someone doesn't lash out at the townsfolk doesn't mean they're not interested in "tactical turn-based combat".. a mechanic which is half of Divinity - Original Sin's equation and part of the reason why we're all playing it. Nobody should be saying "combat? ewwww..."

I wouldn't want fights in the city that don't make sense, nor do I want fights in the city just for the sake of having fights. I would, however, enjoy a fight or two within the city (besides the ones mentioned above which are aimed at a particular playstyle that I don't share) for the sole purpose of breaking up a very substantial patch of dialogue and errand running. At that point it ceases being "a fight for the sake of having fights" and instead serves an important pacing purpose. I also trust that the developers can add a battle or town in ways that makes perfect sense, without it sticking out like a sore thumb.

I couldn't agree more with the original poster. I do like to follow quests to completion but unless you've memorized the quest already, it is going to take you some time to work through (re: Murder). I got fatigued with the wandering and investigation without anything more than conversations happening.

Really - I don't have the kind of game time some folks have - I don't want to sit down to a game and play two hours without an encounter. Yes I could go outside and randomly stumble into fights - but at level 2 you aren't exactly slaughtering everything (well maybe mages do).

If I wanted to talk I'd interact with my family If I wanted to read - I'd grab one of the hundreds of classics or amazing works I'll ultimately never get through in my short life. This isn't to say there is a lot of text (there patently isn't) but a little action really would help pull things along.

I'm not talking about there being *always* action in town - but maybe there could be some cut purses about on occasion or a confrontation over evidence in the case - or maybe someone hires some thugs to come after you because you are getting too 'close' to pinning crime(s) on them? It doesn't have to be a lot - just a little level-appropriate tussle or three.

I think Gyson's posts reflect my sentiments nearly exactly.

I don't think there needs to be any additional content added to the town. Here's why:
There's plenty to do inside and out of Cyseal without it. Adding it at this stage could make it seem forced. This is the first town we have gotten to see. If they add a battle or two to Cyseal then they will have to add that many to every town in an attempt to keep it balanced. So say there are 4 major towns you are now asking for anywhere from 4 to 8 additional battles to take place. The reason I say this is if you add it to Cyseal and not to others then the comments will be "Why only in Cyseal? Why aren't there battles in [insert city name here]?"
Also, stating that completing the quests by fighting isn't your playstyle so they should add combat so it can be your playstyle is kind of off to me. Because what about those who want to not have to worry about random battle XYZ happening in town when all they want is to walk to the market and buy a heal potion? That additional content you want may not be THEIR playstyle and now you have forced it on them.
If the added battles are (as suggested) under a statue, or well, or somewhere not implicitly tied to the main quests (it's own area to explore and gain quests) is the best option.

I have to disagree that because town A has combat town B requires it implicitly. They combat should be added to enhance the flow/pacing and be woven into the story/quests.

Honestly though - if I have, for example, five major towns to visit and they each have long involved questslines which have utterly no action involved I'll personally fall asleep in my chair. Sure, this is *me* - but I suspect I'm far from alone.

Also - your point about playstyle makes little sense to me. Are you saying that the folks who want to be passive shouldn't have combat forced upon them? Ok.. that would be a strange stance to take considering this is billed as a tactical turn-based combat RPG. Additionally there could very easily be non-violent outcomes to some confrontations.

All of this is pure opinion of course - but hours of playing Columbo without a single scuffle is utterly snooze-worthy to me and thus I agree completely with the original post and subsequent supporting posts which call for suitable and story-driven moments of action to occur after the 1st orc battle and before my head hits the keyboard hours later.

First, we don't know that there aren't already fights taking place in other towns. For are we know, there are (which, by your reasoning, means Cyseal needs some too).

Second, I don't think anyone will be asking "Why only in Cyseal? Why aren't there battles in [insert city name here]?". The idea should not be to make every town a carbon copy of every other town. The idea is to improve pacing and break up the monotony of the current setup in Cyseal.

Finally, I don't understand these "feels forced" comments. This game is still in development, meaning changes can and will happen. The game we're playing now is going to look fairly different from the final release.. should every change be met with "feels forced" responses?

And what is with this lack of confidence many of you seem to have in the development team? I ask that because to imply it would "feel forced" is to imply the developers couldn't possibly add in a combat encounter in a way that doesn't feel forced. I guess I have a little more faith in them than that, seeing as they've done a pretty great job with the rest of the game we've seen so far.



We're not talking about random battles happening as you move around town, with random chances of them occurring at random times. We're talking about specific encounters that are woven into the story. Example: a second orc raid that breaches the city defenses at a specific gate between two specific points in the progression of the main plot. Or a one-time bar fight that is triggered by speaking with a specific NPC in the tavern. That sort of thing.

Lastly, there's a big difference between wanting a combat scenario added to improve the pacing and not wanting to be intentionally aggressive with the guards or resolving quest steps through violence when it doesn't match your role-playing style. There are currently combat opportunities within the town of Cyseal (further nullifying your original concern about "why only Cyseal") and around it, but you have to be either incompetent and/or overly aggressive to trigger them, or suffer from some form of ADD and go wandering out of town before your characters are ready. I'm looking for combat options woven nicely into the story for players who are neither.

My main point on the various towns all needing combat isn't what I want or think should happen. Just saying that others will say that is what should happen if one town gets it. I say this because people will find any and every thing to complain about. As I stated the only additional battles I think are good ideas are those not tied to the above area of Cyseal.

We all have our different playstyles and I don't mind the way it is. But yeah I'm sure some other people feel the same.

What I meant was that Gyson said it wasn't his playstyle to fight random people in quests where there were other ways to play it. But wanted battles in the town that couldn't be avoided (at least in my view that was the case. If they had a non-violent method then fine). He wanted things added to enhance his playstyle, which could impede someone else's if done in an unavoidable way. Again add combat in a different area of Cyseal (digging in the grave yard and finding a dungeon, under a well, or statue.)

I just don't want combat being added to Cyseal if it is topside and could possibly interfere in just running from Point A to Point B to do something either quest related or not. Add it in it's own area that is accessed a certain way then I'm all for it.

Response to Gyson: It could very well be in other towns. But then by you stating it doesn't have to be carbon copy then why would Cyseal need it if another town has it? (Realize I'm playing Devil's Advocate here).

The "feels forced" comments are mainly saying "If it's not done right then there's an issue." We want it to be the best game it can be and don't want any area lacking. I have all the faith in the world in Larian as they got me to play Dragon Commander (I dislike RTS games) and I enjoyed it.

As I stated originally it's not MY "why only Cyseal" it's that others may say such things. You are asking "why not in Cyseal" so it's only logical for some to think that if there is something going on in Cyseal then why not in others.

ALSO please don't take any personal offense by any of my points or opinions. I'm merely offering a counterpoint to your argument. I don't think anything is utterly wrong with your points as you are one of the few people I have been in threads with who seems to make valid point/counterpoint. But that by adding one thing for the better enjoyment of your game you may be affecting that of another. While your ideas do seem to be grounded others may not and thus my input.