Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta Lockpicking Issues and suggestions

I'm not referring to the bug which requires you to double-click while opening a lock. Nor am I referring to the treasure table issue which has Lockpicks almost never appear in random loot, although both of these should be fixed. (And Arhu and/or the Arrow Seller should sell Lockpicks.)

I'm referring to a balancing issue currently in the Beta.

Outside of Cyseal, there are essentially no locked chests or doors which haven't got a key for them somewhere. There's always a key around, which makes Lockpicking worthless.

Simply hiding the keys from the all-revealing gaze of the Alt button isn't good enough, the problem is that all chests are always open or have keys in the first place. Just hiding them will work for a playthrough or two until a walkthrough comes out or players find the hiding places themselves, and then lockpicking will become pretty much worthless again.

Suggestion: More chests should be locked, without existing keys.

If players want to get at the stuff inside and there's no key, they should pick the lock, or smash it open with a weapon or spell.

That brings me to another issue. Opening a chest with a lockpick consumes the lockpick. Smashing it open with a weapon damages the weapon. Opening it up with a spell costs nothing but time. As noted elsewhere, that's unbalanced.


Suggestion: Either A) Chests opened by lockpicking (and maybe key as well) should get an additional roll on the treasure table, probably using the lock difficulty as a modifier. Chests smashed open by magic and weapons remain the same.

Or B) Chests opened by smashing them have less items, items inside could start with lower durability, etc. Some kind of thing that makes brute-force opening less appealing.

The additional roll of items represents stuff that was not destroyed by opening the chest violently. Many games which let you use force to open locked chests have similar punishment mechanics to encourage lockpicking.

"Hold on, that's not fair, why should Lockpicking give more stuff? I want to play the character I want."

The reason why is because to lockpick, you need to spend Ability points into Lockpicking. Unlike weapons and magic, the Lockpicking ability has no other applications, it's exclusively for opening locks.

If a player is going to spend precious Ability points into Lockpicking, it has to be worthwhile for reasons other than cosmetic roleplaying.

I totally agree, and I'd go even further: opening chests with violent means should damage the items inside.

Of course, chests with quest related items should remain as they are, with a key hidden somewhere in the nearby or kept by some NPC. Lockpicking should be useful, not bmandatory.

Sounds good!

Instead of 'lockpicking gives bonus items', which may indeed sound unfair, most games use the more aptly 'smashing open a container may give less loot (some may break)'.

Which essentialy is the same, but sounds less like lockpicking just creates items out of thin air smashing does not (there's already luck for that ;))

That would also be a good alternative. I do note though, that items are generated upon mouse over, before opening. I've even seen "Lucky Find" appear over a chest which was still locked.

Yeah, technically it would be the same (bonus item generated), just the way you tell it to your players is different, which is important. More so than the technical side most will see.

Yup, although I *thin* items get generated in chests when first interacted with (which locked includes), not mouse-overed (don't quote me on this though, just the feeling I have). Or potentially when damaged too, for chests opened by traps without the player reaching it yet...

It's just like how 'locked' or 'unlocked' appears over characters while walking to the door instead of at the door.

You're right, I just checked, and it is interaction, not mouse-over, although that doesn't really affect my point much..

- I suggested somewhere else that lockpicking may also be used to disarm traps, especially pressure plates based one. Maybe also mines, I never really tried anything else other than launching something at them or shooting them from a distance, so I'm not sure whether there already are other ways of disabling mines.
This way, one could be compelled to always bring a lockpicking character, giving more utility to the ability, regardless of how many times you ran through the game.
I'd even go as far as pairing a Disarm check with Loremaster ( some kind of included "trap knowledge" ). This way, while Lockpicking would cost you lockpicks when trying to pick a lock, Disarming a trap would bring the risk of setting off the trap should you not have invested enough points in both abilities. Also this way, traps would still be a threat.

- I agree that opening a chest with the key or with a lockpick shouldn't give advantages, but rather smashing it should yield less items/gold, and/or damaged gear. This way, you just don't want to smash the chest. I can't care less about having extra loots though, so if smashing it right here and now gives me correct item, this is the easier and quicker way.

- Overall I don't really see an issue with having a key for each lock, and knowing the location of every one of them. I mean, the vast majority of players are probably going to do only one playthrough anyway, so what's the harm ? If you can even power your way through the game during your third or fourth playthrough, by investing LP points into combat-related abilities, why not?
As it stands now ( or, well, disregarding the fact there are like 5 Lockpicks in the current world ), I see LP as one alternative to open various things when you don't find/don't want to look for the key.
Example, how can you open the doors on the fist floor of the tavern ? Where is the key ? Is it on one of the patrons or the barkeeper ? If yes you would need to invest in pickpocket to grab it.

Please note that I still believe that simply smashing or burning open a door or chest should give a slight handicap. Also, I thought the Open Lock spell only worked for magically locked door like the one in the barracks down by the port. Is that spell actually opening every physically locked containers? If yes, then it shouldn't and I suggest this is either non-intended or should be removed

Pay attention. The issue is that it makes Lockpicking a waste of Ability points if every single random chest is unlocked or has a key. If all Lockpicking is going to be is just a time-saver for finding a key, then it's better to just delete the Ability and have only a lockpick item (which comes in 5 qualities) required for use.

EDIT: I had a Rogue, and by the end of the beta, when I came across locked things, I was not thinking "If only I had more lockpicks I could lockpick this", I was thinking "why should I bother lockpicking this, when I'm sure the key must be around here somewhere."




Yes, there are a few places in Cyseal which have no key around and which require lockpicking. That's fine, but there's nothing outside of Cyseal. That's not fine.




That spell only opens magic locks, and it is working as intended.

It's not a waste when you can use it instead of having to find the key. Sometimes, as the tavern locked doors show, you can't acquire the key if you didn't have the right tools. Let's not forget that we haven't seen the later game stages, so who knows, maybe keys are very hard to come by.

I get that it's sad that the ability stands, right now, more as a "time saver" tool than a real one, which is why I suggested merging it with a potential disarm ability. Or get rid of the lockpicks system, and lock a looot of things, Baldur's game style. Or fallout style, lock things you can't unlock without undertaking some kind of quests or having to charm the person holding the key.

I was refering more to secondary playthroughs, though, where you know all the keys location and know that indeed, you can do without LP. The first run, you may still want some points in the ability just in case... The second, or even third, you will focus on boosting your character.

And last, it's nice to have the ability, at least for potential modding

(quote]Yes, there are a few places in Cyseal which have no key around and which require lockpicking. That's fine, but there's nothing outside of Cyseal. That's not fine.[/quote]

As mentionned, we don't know the full extent of the game yet, so this will have to stay on hold !



Oh, alright. That's what I thought. Your original sentence made it confusing. You meant "destroying" with a spell rather than "opening" then ?

You really think so?

“I need to make a call, but I have lost my $500 cellphone. I’ll go buy a new $500 cellphone.”
-LATER-
“Oops, after buying the new phone, I discovered that my old phone was on my dresser all along. Well, at least that wasn’t a waste because I was able to make that call!!!”

Ability points are a rare and finite resource. They have to be spent sparingly. Therefore, you should get value for these points. Because I have seen no use for lockpicking outside of Cyseal, Lockpicking right now needs more value.




What kind of argument is that? “You can’t complain because maybe the issue will fix itself in the areas we haven’t seen.”

The beta is for getting feedback. This is feedback. I can only go by what we have seen. My default assumption is that the beta is representative of the full game.

My complaint ain’t all that complicated to solve. There are a bunch of chests around in combat encounters, and they are all unlocked. Lock some of them. There are a bunch of chests you have to dig up. They are all unlocked. Lock some of them. There are chests inside dungeons. They are all unlocked. Lock some of them.

Suddenly, Lockpicking becomes attractive to use, even in cases where there actually IS a key, because it is no longer a binary “unlocked/locked-with-key-nearby” situation. Because chests were ONLY locked if there was a key nearby, I learned that it was better to look than to lockpick. Introduce uncertainty by introducing some chests which are locked and amazingly, lockpicking no longer seems like a waste of ability points.

Not rocket science!

There's still the issue of "Wizard smash puny chest", but this thread has a couple suggestions for that too.

I think the problem overall is that you're doing way too much theory-crafting and brainstorming while lacking all the data ( as in, the whole final game content ).
It's true that investing into lock-pick is just as costly as investing into Way of the XX. Yet more than a few of the abilities are useless if we reason this way :
- Crafting is useless, we can find weapons or if need really be, buy them.
- Repair is useless, merchants can repair.
- Loremaster is useless, merchants can identify.
- Pickpocket is useless, not having it won't prevent you from finishing the game.
- Sneaking is only half useful, because only a few select builds and situations require it.
- Telekinesis is useless I just need a str-based character in the party.
- Earth magic is useless because most enemies are zombies and immune to poison ( considering the beta is to be treated as the full game ).
- etc, etc

Most of those sentences are situational, I'll give that to you, but so is Lock-picking.

What I perfectly agree with is that more locked chests would help give the Lockpicking ability more love and utility. I still think it should do something else rather than just open locks, hence my proposition of Trap disarming, because, well, in the current state of the game, I'd just ignore locked chests if I couldn't open them anyway. No need for whatever's inside.

What I perfectly disagree with is the whole "theory-crafting" issue.
Ability points aren't that rare and precious that you won't be able to finish the game without resorting to carefully planned ability points distribution. Heck, even during the alpha stages where the game was harder it wasn't THAT important to theory-craft our points allocation. Heck bis, as I mentioned elsewhere, it IS possible to rank 5 your Way come level 6 thanks to Lone Wolf. As it turns out, the game is just plain too easy when you know what you're doing. Just disregard threads saying otherwise, they can't be serious!
D:OS isn't Path of Exile where a single point allocation mistake can prove to be a fatal error.
People want to invest into LP and not care about finding the keys, I don't see a problem with that. To each their own. I essentially agree that LP is not very worthy in its current state, albeit not completely useless. Still it's not the end of the world because suddenly you wasted precious points and it's "game over, man!" waiting around the corner, as you almost make it sounds like.


Or maybe they just want us, by design, to look for keys instead of picking locks, and the ability is only here for people failing at the game or hasty players...


Tl;Dr :
- I agree that LockPicking is weak because not really necessary in the current state of the beta,
- I disagree that putting points in LP is a total and complete waste even in the current state of the beta,
- I do not have an issue with LP ( and probably more abilities ) not being needed because you now know the keys locations in subsequent playthroughs ( if any! ),
- I concur that having a few more locked chests, as well as hiding the keys from the ALT view, would help give LockPicking a second wind ; and bashing open chests should damage whatever's inside and/or yield less loots.
- Lockpicks need some attention.

There's a thin line between 'useful' and 'required', just as there is between 'useful' and 'useless'

I wouldn't want the dig-chests to be locked. While it makes sense (you lock it before you bury it right?) this isn't D&D where we expect everyone to have a rogue. Those chests already require a Perception investment, or otherwise a monetary investment in the map, there's no need to make it even more difficult to open them if you already need to allocate points or spend money to get them in the first place.
There are about 8 or so lockboxes in the graveyard, leading up to one chest which has the same loot as any other quest. Quite the dissapointment going through so many chests, looting so many keys. Something could be done with them.

I must not have found so many unlocked chests as you seem to have, I barely seen any. Most are, infact, already locked. But with the key nearby. Do you suggest then that the key goes away? Or did I miss the abundance of unlocked chests around?

This may not be D&D, but it is a party-based game, and there will be henchmen and companions. I’m expecting (by process of elimination) that one of the next companions will be a Ranger. The game expects you to switch them out from time to time. It’s not entirely unreasonable to assume that along the way, someone you hire can find spare points to spend in Lockpicking.

I spotted a lot of the buried things (at least, most of the ones which have maps associated) through normal play on a Rogue who had 7 Perception – the starting 6, plus one from gear (so probably many of those things could be seen with 6 PER). I put no points into PER at all with that Rogue. That’s hardly a massive investment. Jahan starts with 6 PER. Slap a piece of +1 Perception gear onto Jahan and he can find the same stuff. I don’t think that a +1 PER piece of equipment is such a crippling burden that a lock is just going too far. Not to mention that the guy with 7 PER and the guy with Lockpick don’t need to be the same guy, and there are more ways to open a chest besides lockpicking.

West Cyseal has a bunch of combat encounters and houses which feature unlocked chests. Okay fine, that is the starter area needed to give players the resources to survive, so leave those unlocked. There are many places where chests could be locked. I think that if you can take on the Lighthouse Horror and the Tiny Twins at the Burial mounds, the training wheels can come off the bike and locked chests can start appearing.

Places which have unlocked chests: the lighthouse basement, the two chests outside the burial grounds, the one outside the Sparkmaster tunnel, two of the four Burial Mounds treasure chamber chests could be locked. Most of the chests in the Black Cove are unlocked – that’s a reasonably high-level area.

The biggest problem with the key-locked chests is not that they are key-locked, but that outside of Cyseal, 100% of locked chests have keys nearby to open them.

ACTUAL EXPERIENCE AND THOUGHTS WHEN PLAYING THE GAME FOLLOWS:
It became completely predictable very quickly, and because I KNEW there was a key around, I had no reason to bother with lockpicking. Every time I was right, and I found the key I needed nearby.

I’m not griping that I wasted points into Lockpick. I didn’t. I never bothered boosting it past the starting level of 1, and I never needed to.

That was my actual experience, so don’t just derisively throw up a hand and dismiss it as “theorycrafting”. It isn’t.

The design of assigning point into Lockpicking = Meaningless.

The monster is not respawn. Unless we have spare teammate that have extra point to spent with.
Otherwise, JUST BLAST THROUGH ANYTHING.

To be honest, nor did I. Or, well, I tried to amp it up a bit just in case, but seeing I wasn't getting nowhere with the ability, I stopped wasting points into it.
We only really miss the infamous tavern first floor rooms by not having lockpicking. Maybe also the Mayor's room in the back.
Every other locks we can open. Keys are always nearby. And easy to spot because of the ALT overlay. from the top of my head, only two keys are "some distance" from the chest they open : one in the Black Cove subsection with the levers puzzle, and the key for the chest behind the two guards at the lighthouse. Like, it's 10 meters away.



But what sparked my flame in the first place is precisely you mentioning the rarity and preciousness of ability points, right from the very first post. Isn't that the way to theorycrafting ? When you begin to consider where points should be allocated, and where they would be wasted ?
But anyway that's not important.

Again I agree that lockpicking is lacking some bang for its buck. I don't think that being able to entirely ignore it in later playthroughs is "bad design", though. That's what I was defending. I'd even say it's good design when an ability isn't mandatory to the game. The "bad design" is that it's not even desirable.

I think it's in FallOut 1 that Lockpicking isn't that necessary too, but I like the fact that it's a mandatory skill when you want to do a speedrun. I shall have to re-visit those speedruns, but I seem to remember a specific locked door. The key is given through the storyline or something, but with a high enough LP you can just dismiss the whole key acquisition and go right through it. This kind of design I like, and I'm a bit saddened that it seems impossible to pick the lock of Evelyn's house.
I can only hope the rest of the game will feature some situations where having lock-picking would really help and be part of a quest...

No! That's called "planning your character".

some way besides the point of OP but related to lockpicking
How to get into the smith's house "General store" in cyseal besides fighting the doors lvl 10? Lockpicking lvl 1 doesn't work also the spell doesn't work ?!? so how to get inside without charging in?
BTW: coming from the caves down up is doing it the wrong direction? the keys lie behind the doors ?!

We found out that throwing the pyramid over the door worked well, but it's probably not what was intended

Lockpicking is bugged, you need to double-click or else it won't work. The key inside is for a chest inside, there is no key for the upstairs doors.

I would have to agree with your points that there isn't much usage of lock picking past the town, however the bigger problem is getting lock picks in the first place. As this needs to be fixed first otherwise LP will still be useless.

Currently in the last 2 play through I have done/currently doing I have had lock pick and aside from the few I found in the start I have never found ANY others. Both Arue and the Arrow sellers have never had any LP for me to buy either. Sadly I haven't been able to use my skill all that much.

It would be nice to see more LP being found throughout the world and able to purchase them for a cost. Couple this with the ability to use the skill outside of town and I think the skill credits for this could go a long way.

They should also make some quests that can only be done with LP kind of like with the Talking Pet Talent.

After playing around 60h in game and looting/steeling really everything I found/bought more than 15 lockpicks (only 6 magical unlock-scrolls) total and some vendors do have random items and sell it too (with every character/companion tradeing after reentering town you have 4 random itemcollections of each vendor and higher probability to get lockpicks)

I think i might have found the solution for the ALT key showing too much.


- ALT key should highlight items only acording to perception skill of the character. -

This would require items to be grouped into perception relevant groups.
For example these important keys would require higher perception, say 8 or 9, for example.
(the devs can then adjust different items relatively easily)

In the game it would mean ALT key highlights the usual loot for ease of use - but you dont see that very important or quest relevant key just like that - so easily.
Instead - you see it when your character perception is high enough - which is intuitively understandable and naturally acceptable to everyone. I would think. Since its in line with common sense - and general RPG kind of gameplay.

The player who invest in Perception gain a very nice reward for it this way. Those who dont - get to do a little bit of pixel hunting - help from the players themselves, but are better at some other things.

I don't quite agree with closing 2 of the 4 chests after the puzzle...

"You just solved this intricate puzzle... here's 50% of your reward since you didn't build your character the way that we want you to. Well, that sucks for you. You can always return with a character once the items in these chests have become useless to you. Want to solve another puzzle for aggrevation and half-rewards?"

You do all that effort, then punished like that? No.
That's like doing a quest, getting an option for a fine 1h sword/2h sword/staff and the game goes 'But wait, you have 0 charisma. Oh well, no reward for you!'

I still don't see why lockpicks need to be one use btw.

Sorry? Are you responding to me - my post above yours?

Nah, one of Stabbey's much easier post how we could just easily lock 2 of the 4 chests from the cave/amulet puzzle.

You don't want the chests you dig up to be locked. You don't want some of the burial mounds chests to be locked (or is one of the 4 locked okay?). I presume from your earlier question that you don't want some of the keys which exist currently for locked chests to be removed.

What would you like to see done with Lockpicking?


I don't mind if Lockpicks are multiple use, but I also don't mind if they are consumed after use.

No, since all those already have their own difficulty in finding the quest (perception/map or puzzle). No point adding another layer on top of that.
I'm fine with other chests found along the way, but, again, I barely found any of the kind.

I wouldn't object to some chestkeys being gone, or the chests of the graveyard (Not limited by perception or map) to be lockpickable instead of that not paying off key and chest 'puzzle').

Or WoW-style ( yeah I just said World of Warcraft! yay ! ), sometimes you get a lockbox for defeating your enemies. Can only be opened with Lockpick, will contain small stuff like gold, healing potion, maybe a craft item.
Or give a NPC the ability to lockpick for you for a price ( maybe keeping the gold inside, making it some kind of gamble by varying the potential gold quantity ), and put some more useful things in it. Kind of how Repair and Loremaster already work, either do it yourself or do it for gold, so that no one will have to skip on the content.

I dont really get why lockpicks need to break - at all.

Its supposed to be a kind of a resource that spends over time and that you need to invest into... but i really dont see whats the overall purpose or point of it.

It would all be better if lockpicking was just skill related and you get one set of lockpicks (maybe find a few better versions along the way) - and use them throughout the game.
Where lockpick quality would function as a bonus to your lockpicking skill.

I approve of Hiver's suggestion

There were some RPG's where skill use could fail, or even critically fail. Removing lockpicks was a way to "punish" the player in a logical way, and to sustain a form of economy, because the player would need to gain some, through buying, crafting, or whatever... But indeed you are right, in such an amazingly reactive world, if you have the skill level, you succeed. Makes things simpler. And at least it should not bug. Wait....


This is to be used cautiously, in a 1 to 5 range of ability level. Just a +1 would be a huge bonus. Already expressed myself about this. Just a reminder.
Even D&D had a 20 based system. +1 is then only a +5% increment, instead of being a +20% increment in DOS (taking a geometrical approach, although that can be discussed, because better abilities level need more character points, and we don't know the inner workings of the game)

Another way to say the whole character "development" is a misery from its very foundations, because it allows very little fine tuning as the various bonus can go. I am pretty sure even the devs are feeling the limits and heaviness of this lack of perspective.
But hey, there are no quest markers, and its possible to kill every NPC's to make money, so the game is great! Who needs a deep character development and interesting world interactions when you have talking shells and funny robots.

I don't approve Hiver's suggestion, because it is narrow minded , boring, and doesn't pay a tribute to the level of details that already went into this game.

This kind of sounds off when you just spent a few minutes typing a thread showing that the game lacked any real level of details ...

Then you are getting me wrong. The game if full of details. Empty/filled cups, various types of fishes, jar to pour honey in it, broken bottles, rat tails, crates lids... However, having a go/no go system to interact with all this, and a 1-5 system, and a 1 point/level character development, and useless abilities, is just such a waste of great detailed world.

The world is detailed, what is made of it through character/system feature is not, and it is a shame.

Godammit, release the damn editor.

It's perfectly reasonable and (abused as the word often is) immersive to have a key for every lock because people don't generally install locks on things without having keys to get them open. That's particularly true of things they'll be using often (like the door to their house). Sure, someone might occasionally lose a key, but the key is still somewhere to be found (even if it's hard to get at), and if the person actually wants access to the thing then they'll change the lock.

I don't like the idea of damaging or destroying contents if you force the thing open. In practice, forcing open a container (or even a door) would normally involve prying it open with a crowbar or breaking the lock itself, not obliterating the entire door/container a greataxe or fireball (something that is really only done in emergencies); that the game mechanics force the latter on the PC is actually a fault in the design (one common to CRPGs, admittedly).

In fact, it's perfectly reasonable that towns are usually the only place where you'd bother picking a lock - they're typically the only place where getting one open without attracting the attention of the owner and/or guards actually matters. Of course, town is often the place where the key will be in the possession of its owner, which means that picking the lock is an alternative to trying to get the key from that person by whatever method, and that's advantageous enough if you're trying to avoid notice.

And yes, it is quite weird to have lockpicks be 'used up' by picking a single lock. They're not disposable items (at least no more so than other hardware), nor are they particularly fragile. (This is also a case where lockpicking gets arbitrarily singled out for some reason: it's not like the game requires you to get a new repair hammer for every item you mend or a new magnifying glass for every item you inspect.)


So no, I don't like the idea of forcing lockpicking on every party to avoid destroying loot; like many others, it's a situational skill and its value is plot-dependent, but that's as it should be. I do agree with the above poster that the 'disposable lockpick' model is a silly one and makes the skill difficult to justify or use even in scenarios where it should be a valid or outright optimal approach.

I do not care one bit at all how "realistic" it is for chests to be locked or not or always have a key or not, or only be locked inside cities. It's certainly not "realistic" to go into a thousand year old tomb of an evil Source King and find coins which are accepted in modern Cyseal, or health potions still as fresh as the day they were brewed, or weapons and armour in perfect condition which haven't rusted to dust, but I don't see you complaining about those things, do I? The reason is because fun and gameplay balance takes priority over strict realism.

Strict adherence to reality in all things makes for unfun gameplay.

Yeah, no one likes losing items when they smash chests open, but there were also objections to an alternate idea of "lockpicking/key-opening grants EXTRA items" as well.

Lockpicking is an ABILITY. Abilities should offer advantages to using them, it's called GAMEPLAY BALANCE. If you like the status quo, where Lockpicking is completely optional and offers basically no advantages over smashing the chest open or finding the key, then you should support removing that ability and just having different qualities of lockpick items.

I basically agree with the issues raised in this thread.

If (almost) every locked chest/door has a key available, it kinda defeats the purpose of having a lockpicking skill, especially if lockpicks are a rare ressource on top of it.
Within a few days all key locations will be known and can be looked up in guides, anyway.

Damaging items inside locked chests might be one way to balance the skill, imho, but I'd also put more locked chests without keys into the game, or provide alternative routes around obstacles or to quest objectives by using lockpicking. However, optimally those should be meaningful, e.g. provide more than just simplistic "either pick the lock to the door or find the key".

Having quests that rely on certain skills might help, too (e.g. a Thieves Guild in case of lockpicking).

Thats not a "logical way" to punish the player at all.
Because there is no logic in breaking the lockpicks when you fail to pick a lock. At all.
Nor is it logical to use that to "sustain" some economy, or at least - that kind of economy is not logical at all.

It is all merely a gamey shortcut. And a trope.

- Yes, if you have the skill level you should succeed. Indeed.




Not needed. Of course it would only bring small bonuses - because otherwise it would devalue the skill. I thought that would be understood by itself, but... didnt count on fear logic - alas.


That has absolutely nothing with what i said and suggested.


Not that anyone or everyone need to approve and like my idea... but, this kind of personal declaratory statements, completely unsupported by any relevant or even seemingly closely connected arguments is completely worthless and utterly nonsensical.
I mean... since we are sharing opinions... i thought to let you know about mine.


@NeutroniumDragon:


- Instead, wouldnt it be nice if forcing some container open would result in a big, very loud noise - that would raise a critical alert and possibly foil some specific sneak dependent quest, options therein or both?



- Exactly. Or, if you cannot find the key - because your perception skill is too low, (so pressing ALT key doesnt help for that specific eh, key), or you didnt (or couldnt) search in the right place.



@Stabbey

Thats not really true. Or can be true only if one imagines some sort of crude and intentionally boring extreme simulation kind of a game or a feature.

But, its a very long subject in on itself.

"Picking the lock gives extra stuff" is the same thing as "breaking the container gives less stuff" even if it's trying really hard to pretend that it isn't. Neither one is going to be popular and both of them effectively make lockpicking a mandatory skill instead of an optional one.

I don't care about absolute realism either, but neither do I want to come across the absurdity of people unable to get into or out of their own houses because the doors are locked and the keys don't exist so that getting in can be a "challenge", especially since you don't NEED to do that kind of thing to make it relevant.

Fallout 1 and 2 (not 3) are a good example of how lockpicking can be a useful skill without being mandatory. In most scenarios or situations it provides or is part of one of several possible solutions. This is dependent on quest/story scripting allowing for various approaches, but that's fine because DOS is already trying to follow that model as much as it can (within reasonable development limits). That's how lockpicking should be - not an arbitrary "you get more stuff from chests just because" skill.

To the extent that smashing through doors instead of opening them quietly works in the game - you generally take longer to do it and have to keep an eye out for people wandering by, which is already an opportunity cost - the fact that the game doesn't really generate responses to people finding things smashed open is really the only thing that slants it against picking the lock vs breaking it. Individual objects/characters/quest scripts could (and ideally, would) take this into account, especially since (as I pointed out earlier) breaking stuff tends to be noisy and noticeable even if no one has line of sight to the event.

I'm fairly confident the strongbox suggestion I did a few post ago is a good middle-line. It enhances Lockpicking without making it a mandatory skill. I think there was a discussion about loot tables some time ago, but maybe adding one possible loot to the encounters is probably not as hard as revisiting the existing chests and doors to enable or not, one by one, the "locked" tag as well as manually setting a lock value.

Just as a reminder, I suggested that those strongboxes could be opened by lockpicking ( doh! ) but also be brought to someone in town to force open/lockpick it for you for a price. Either keeping the gold inside, making it some kind of gambling ( if there was only gold or a big sum, you "loose", if the sum was small or non-existent, you'd keep whatever else was inside almost for free ).
As for what could be inside, it could range from small stuff like potions and scrolls to more solid stuff like arrows/arrow heads, books, maybe some weapons like daggers and knife, gear like boots, belts and bracers, crafting ingredient with varying degree of rarity... Not expecting large sized items like swords, chest armors, big two handed maces :p

This way it would work just like Loremaster and Repair, abilities you'd want to grab but you can also avoid altogether. With 3 skills being "replaceable" by NPCs but also being costy in the long run should you choose to ignore them, you would want to invest some points in some of them ...

I was thinking it may be time for a recap of the various suggestions though. Something clean just for future references and to the developer's attention.
From the top of my head there was things such as
- hiding the keys from the ALT overlay,
- revisiting existing chests to either remove the key and/or add more locks overall,
- disarming traps with Lockpicking, adding strongboxes,
- reviting lockpicks so that they would either be indestructible but have a set Lockpicking value or give the player a way to get a lot of them if need be,
- damaged/less items in forced chests ( raw force or magic ),
- lucky find/more item in a lockpicked/opened by key chest
- more...

This is by no mean a complete list of what was suggested here, but it would take a little time to parse the 2 pages and honor everyone's suggestions so far in a clean way.
Maybe if I get some spare time I'll look into it tomorrow.

Your position seems to be that a person who spends no Ability points at all into Lockpicking should get the same reward as someone who does invest Ability Points.

I am totally fine with just making Lockpick a cosmetic option only useful for alternate solutions, like you want. But if that is all it is going to be, then it is not something I'll ever spend Ability points into. In the beta, the non-lockpicking solutions aren't any more difficult than the lockpicking ones.

It may let me slightly sequence-break, but it does not serve as an alternate approach to let me bypass.

If it doesn't serve a unique purpose, you could delete it and replace with just items, or roll it in with some other skills (like Repair for example) which serve another purpose.




What are you even talking about? No one's saying anything at all about doors and locked houses people can't get into?




Fallout 1 and 2 also have a wildly different skill system than D:OS.


While having Lockpick as one of many multiple solutions may be the way Lockpicking SHOULD work in D:OS, at the moment, it does not really match Fallout's variety in solutions.

Lockpicking can maybe let you take a couple sequence-breaking shortcuts in the main quest (the murder scene chest, Evelyn's house), or let you get into Esmeralda's private rooms slightly faster than it takes to get the back door key from upstairs.

Fallout would let you either lockpick Esmeralda's door, talk her into letting you search her house, let you blow up a locked door, or hack the computer-controlled rear door to let you in. Right now, you can lockpick, or go up the unguarded stairs and get the key to the house from an empty room. It's not much more effort to get the key than to lockpick.




Again no one is talking about doors. Even if they were, the keys for said doors are basically right beside them for the taking anyway.

It's quite true that right now, the D:OS Beta doesn't really have so many options or alternate routes.

The idea of Lockpicking as a shortcut to solutions is a reasonable one, and there are at least a few some places where it could be used.


The Withered Gardens has a path on the east side leading down towards the teleporter, but a wall blocks it. If instead it's a locked gate which you can pick, it lets you bypass a bunch of traps which are at the other entrance. A key could be placed inside the gardens, requiring you to enter either through the traps or gate.

The Church has a collapsed and blocked stairway at its entrance. The only way to reach the entrance is to go through the graveyard and through a bunch of encounters. Make the stairs connect and put a locked gate, and look - you can pick it and bypass some encounters. A gate key could be placed at the church entrance.

In the Black Cove, the key to the Black Cove Harbour Gate is on some books right beside the gate. Whoopie. Put the key in either of the two rooms full of traps nearby, and lockpicking will let you bypass it to open the gate.

In the Black Cult hideout, there's a room full of anemic cultists and there's a door leading further into the level. Lock that gate, and put the key elsewhere in the room, and you now have the option of fighting the cultists or sneaking past and lockpicking the door. (A poor example because you can just sneak to the currently-unlocked door.)

Now that's more like it!

Re: Esmerelda's door and key, the issue isn't so much that the key is there, but that she and the guard don't seem to mind one bit that you go strolling up the stairs into her private quarters. If getting up those stairs without provoking trouble required sneaking past/distracting/bribing/etc the guard, having the option of picking the lock instead would be more useful, and smashing through the door probably ought to draw the NPCs' attention as well, making it less viable for getting in unless you're really creative about it. (On the other hand, whacking the back door a time or two and taking off might be one way to distract the guard so that another character can slip upstairs...)

Well, I was talking about how some RPGs do it. But indeed, that is probably not logical in Larian fantasy "Alice in Wonderland" world.


So if you have the skill level to hit an opponent, you should succeed then. Go play chess. No random results. Just pure RPG fun. Sigh.


Well, explain me how in a 1-5 range level, something can bring a comparatively "small" bonus. Of course, I get it, in larian fantasy world, +1 on a 1-5 range is a "small bonus", +2 a very small bonus, +3 a huge bonus, +4 a tiny bonus, and +5 a basic bonus. No need for stupid so called logic. My bad. Yes, there is no logic in saying that there is more choice in a 1-1000 range than in a 1-5 range. If the math gets tough, just blast your way through with a fireball.


Well, you are right again, Alice. Nvw.

That is what I love about this forum, is that we can express ourselves.


LockPicking could also be a bonus skill for people who would like to play in a more thievering way. Bonus treasure chests or Backrooms. Maybe the keys were lost some times ago. Old chest in an attic. Buried treasure chest. Trapped chests that would explode and utterly destroy themselves if you move/hit them, so would require lockpicking. No wait, forget this last sentence, it is nonsensical bullshit.

I am all for the less stuff in it if you break it option. no potions in a broken chest... Wait no, it is not "logical". I mean MORE potions in a broken chest, of course.

As for the loot tables, I read somewhere on the forum that there might be a lot of it already, and that if got a little out of hand, and adding more was not that easy. I probably misunderstood.

Or if lockpicking is an hassle, and you can't find any imaginative way to use it, just remove it.

If it isnt clear already, i really dont care for your continual crying about Larian this and Larian that and their world - as seen by you.

Either stick to the subject and reply to arguments and matters at hand or go talk and complain about "Larian" to yourself somewhere.


We were talking about lockpicking - there should be no RNG to it, or it could be very, very small - and lockpicks dont have any way to defend - unless otherwise stated so as a particular of the setting.

If there is some small RNG then lockpick quality could handle and counter that. Though its best if there isnt any such fake RnG to it at all.


It can - if the devs make it have 0.1 bonus. Or 0.000001


Indeed.


You dont say?

Claiming the obvious - just after you falsely invented some opposite of that is a logical fallacy. If you wanna talk logic.


Indeed? How does that fireball work on logical constructs so far for you?


Correct.


Hopefully this will be the end of it. As well as you following me around from thread to thread and trying to "get back at me".

@ Neutronium; I know, I even said so in the start. I was merely stating "breaking" stuff on bashing is more logical and realistic (even if other threads on this forum starting to make me hate those terms) than magically getting extra loot upon opening a chest, even if the actual implementation of the system mechanically is "lockpick; bonus item".
According to your response, you say luck is mandatory at the moment, as it adds bonus items to drops. Is it however? For lockpick this would be even worse, since there are less locked chests than any other lootboxes luck can work for.
In the end, luck would still be superior in the lootfactor, but it gives lockpicking a nice boost over bashing, and is hardly criticial, just as luck isn't (but it's really nice, so I definitely boost luck ;))

I wouldn't exactly be in favour of Dr. Koin's lootbox suggestion. Identifying is already a step from unused to usable loot, I don't see a reason to add another. Especially seeing how it's mentioned that would make lockpicking useful as another moneydrain if no points are invested in, but the method given states that you get the items inside free anyway, just not the money that's there. That's not really a drain on your money, is it now, like repair/identify? That's just not getting some bonus money. And we all now money is aplenty enough atm without adding more to the cycle.

I do like most of Stabbey's "use lockpick here to avoid some fights" scenarios. Thruth is however, no one will still do that, since unlike Pillars of Eternity, fights are big XP here. And thus you're just cheating yourself out of experience in return for lockpick points. Avoiding traps is more like it...

Hm yes you're quite right, money isn't really a scarce ressource.
Maybe just having to pay to get to the content, with no gold inside. Or the "gambling" may be paying a sum and hoping to get it back with the content.
The main idea was essentially to find an alternate way of giving Lockpicking more credits without having to re-do anything in the world, as revisiting the map to add or modify locks really sounds like a big, edgy thing to do.

I completely agree the best of lockpicking comes when you can use it to bypass things, when it IS a real alternative. I mentioned FallOut 1 and the infamous locked door you could lockpick with the proper skill and bypass a big part of the game, this is good and satisfying design and it even kicks in in later playthroughs when you now know you could have done that right from the beginning.
It's just that I don't really have high hopes about that, as we are in Beta and not Alpha anymore and I don't really know if they would undertake such a task... But I like it more.

It's indeed a bit tricky when fights can bring such good XP and you don't want to avoid them though... And giving a succesfull lockpick an amount of xp equal to what you'd have got for the fights isn't a solution as people are just going to lockpick and then proceed on the normal path to get both rewards. Aaah, damn you, metagaming !

And and what you are suggesting is that 1-5 range with 0.1 increments is exactly the same as a 10-50 range increment. So we do agree that big numbers make for more choices, and possibly fine tuning. However, I haven't seen any fractionnal bonus to abilities. Fact. This might change, and then offer more bonus and freedom to the devs.


NVM


It is not because people are utterly ignoring me (which is understandable and fine) that I am not making proposals. And what about applying you own rules to yourself ?

I wasnt really suggesting that for OS specifically, since i dont know the details of its lockpicking mechanics.
It was more of a general kind of idea, one i would certainly use in my game - if i ever make it.


- i always apply my rules to myself first. Thats why no one else gets any quarter.
If i must suffer this a**hole then so shall everyone. Kind of a thing.

Hopefully, the much desired and looooong awaited editor will allow us to create some mods and rules that will suit our playstyles, the more the better, and offer us the joy of sharing the hard work. If you ever make a game, I wish you the best of luck and commitment (especially with people like me around XD).

As for rules, I try to stick to mine, but it is not always easy or successfull. Anyways.

Some more consideration about numbers. Lets say you are in a 1-5 system like DoS. so, +1 would be good, +2 better, and +3 even better (logic and "make sense" bullshits aside, of course...).
Lets say you have a +2 ring of lockpicking, and a +2 glove of lockpicking, and +2 "great lockpicks".
That is a +6, beyond the limit of 5.
I AM NOT (for once) CRITICIZING, but thinking. So in this case, there would be no need to invest into lockpicking, because magic and special objects would make the trick.
This might be a very fine alternative to people like me complaining that there are not enough char development points.
Just some thoughts.

(nobody is perfect at judging himself, or living according to his own rules. The important thing is to really, actually try. And to learn and correct oneself, step by step - because so very few do even that much)

I can just repeat that i wouldnt use such a mechanic at all. I said small bonus and i meant it literally.
Not something that would override the skill. Just add a small bonus to it.
If that.
Since such a skill is purely well, skill and knowledge related or dependent.

Although, i presume you would need specific sets of different lockpicks - specifically made for specific kinds of locks of the more complicated - non standard kind.
In this case, adhering to reality would result in better gameplay, but it should be designed like this from the ground up.

I doubt this can be applied to OS at this point.

Oh yes, talk about frustration :-( (well, I do :-( ) There are people that are very good at getting the best of what they have, and some that always want more. I am sadly of that second sort. Sometimes it really feels like a bane, because you can never be satisfied :-(