Larian Studios Forums Divinity - Original Sin Divinity Original Sin - Beta Writing - some suggestions

As i previously stated in several threads, i really like how the writing is done in the game generally, and i like how the narrative of some specific quests is done.

You guys are achieving much, much better results then Wasteland2 beta which is trying very, very hard, but fails miserably in this department.

I have to say that, as an overall theme, i dont much like the usual setup of necromancy evil vs good guys. It is a fantasy trope and personally i find it too simplistic.

BUT... apart from that, thinking about just how it is dealt with in smaller quests and as a part of the various characters motivations i find it really well done.

It doesnt bother me. Apart it being a cliche, it isnt done and integrated in the game in a bad way at all.
In fact, in some quests its rather good.

Not all quests or characters deal with it anyway. Which is good.


The introduction main quest of the murder investigation is really well done. I like it and how it develops very much.
I like the fact that i have to go around and discover things about it myself and that i have to deal with unreliable witnesses who accuse each other so nothing is easily clear and solvable.

I especially love the fact that the commander Aureus is not my play doll and that he actually doesnt care what i may think or want - unless i get some evidence.

Thats just great.

However, once we solve the case - we do know the solution and who done it every executive time we start the game.
Which is a common, usual problem with RPGs and the fact that good ones are replayable.

Which OS is. Very much.

Im not sure how that can be handled, unless you would want to add a few more false solutions to it. So we could accuse and have arrested (or kill) some other NPCs... even though we know the real culprit.
That would create the possibility of a few different C&C options.

However, I am not sure that is actually necessary.
Because the murder investigation is just the introduction quest, not the main quest or the story of the game.

It would be nice if something like that can be added to increase diversity of the start of the game - at some later date.



***



Lighthouse ghost quest:

A suggestion how to rewrite the ending of it in a better, stronger way.

I find Desdemona and she goes back to see Samson.
When i go there i find them and then im asked to resolve the problem of whether she should forgive him or not.

If i decide to argue she should forgive him, it all works fine but, it could be written in a better way.

The reply my characters make is basically that she should forgive him, because he was really sorry. And thats pretty much it.

Yet, there was much more material presented about his condition that makes it very believable why exactly he should be forgiven. He did kill himself and he was extremely tormented over what he has done - even in afterlife, as a ghost. That whole time.

Thats extreme torment - its not just basic "oh but he was sorry, really" kind of a thing.

That should be clearly mentioned and expressed more strongly as the argument why he should be forgiven.
And Desdemona should consider and express that in her final replies.

Then it would all seem much stronger.

Its just a shame that the ending of such a well written and imagined story ends so ... quickly and somewhat weakly.



***



Ebenezer quest


As i said previously, i really like how this thing grows from simple beginnings and connects to Unsinkable Sam.

But, much as in the Lighthouse ghost quest, the very ending, the solution of it could be written in a stronger, more decisive manner - if the last discussion with Ebenezer would actually address the issues properly.

According to the way that it is described.
According to the info we have at that point.

The thing is that the replies my character make are rather... wishy-washy about it all.

It feels very unsatisfactorily to address and talk about those issues in that way.

It is as if the writer did not want to write the two decision you make in the appropriate ways for it. As if he tried to hang onto some sort of ambivalence about it, some sort of extreme absolute relativity.

While the facts about it, that we get to discover, are nothing of the sort.



So... the first two answers you can give when you confront him, knowing this, cannot be:



Because thats just doesnt make much sense int that situation, considering the crimes and his own thinking about it.

Knowing all that and his personal "philosophy" - just leaving him there will not be any kind of punishment at all for him.
He wont be haunted by any of it at all. He likes it all. He enjoys it.


While in the second reply,



- only the second option rings true - even if it isnt logically connected to either of previously stated response options.

Things like these should be dealt with more strongly, more directly. There cannot be just some "oh its all relative" oxymoron as an excuse for it, nor "he will be tormented by his conscience" - when it is clear he wont be.

Not that being tormented by his own conscience is nearly enough as any kind of punishment in this case, even in the case that he would feel anything like that. Which is clear that he wont.


***


- The real appropriate punishment for crimes of such gravity would be:

1. Being made to lose any sense of actually feeling anything, ever again, for eternity. Which the ghost form is perfect for.
This would be a different kind of ghost existence then Samson the ghost had - obviously affected by some kind of judgement from "outside".

Or even made such by our Source hunters (since it seems they are not just ordinary source hunters) - maybe someone from Homestead could be asked to help in making that special punishment becoming real for Ebenezer?

Wouldnt that be much more appropriate?

So - he wouldnt be able to feel anything at all anymore, as a story consequence - and in gameplay direct terms - he would not be able to deal any damage to anyone. While our heroes could hurt and destroy him - only to have him reaper in the same place, after some time or even instantly - when the whole process can be repeated.

With a small xp reward always being a reward for "killing him" again, which would serve as a small incentive for players to actually do it more times.

So, basically in ensuing combat his hits would deal no damage whatsoever, but our hits onto him would hurt.


2. Being forced to face up heavenly judgement with explicit reassurances of it ending in him ending in Hell where the exact same crimes that he committed would be done unto him. Which - being in Hell would make possible.


***


One more thing that isnt much consistent with the current story of that quest is that those other ghost also attack you, if you choose to go that way.

There is no reason why they should.

Especially if you expose Ebenezer real motives.

They should leave in that case. Since believing him is what somehow kept them there. They are not his friends or allies - according to the story of it all.

Additionally, as an optional angle and theme, this specific quest can be used to sarcastically address the very current and modern issue of majority of people (gaming "fans" among them especially) developing the culture of radical entitlement and radical desire for new pleasing content regardless of any consequences.


Of course, this should be done in indirect, sarcastic ways not to break the fourth walls of the game too much.
You do have skill with that kind of sarcastic subversive stuff already.



---------------------------------------------------



These two things are the only examples of internal writing or narrative inconsistency that i found in the beta.
I believe i saw almost all of its content by now.

Otherwise, great job. Although i wish that dialogue lines ive used would disappear in the dialogues. Which is more of a functionality thing, but it would make the dialogues feel more believable and characters more... real.


I hope all this helps and is not just understood as complain or negative critique, or a desire to force personal issues onto the game.

Appreciating the fact that subjectivity is very hard if not impossible to completely divest from themes such as these.
But that works both ways.

It's not really feasible to add alternate or decoy solutions to the murder quest. This game is highly story-driven and ties so many things together into its main plot. You'd have to change scripting, pre-placed journals, NPC's, dialogues - it would basically be writing an entirely new game. Not feasible.

Not to forget that the murder quest is already quite heavily bugged...

Both points in reply are true, but he's bang on about the cop-out ending to Desdemona and Samson's story, and about the dismal ending to Ebenezer's story.

Particularly because of the strong opening and mid-story of both these side quests, which makes the endings' failures stand out. Simple endings that aren't so facile aren't hard to conceive of.

For example, you could choose to argue for Desdemona to forgive Samson. If you win RPS, she's still too angry to listen, at which point she leaves. Then after some time passage, she could decide to forgive him later - they could come to tell you about it, or you could have to return to the lighthouse to find that out. Hell, you could go back to the wreck at Black Cove and argue some more, but that's maybe more than the side quest is worth.

Alternatively, you could argue for her not to forgive him, win RPS against him, and have her leave him there in his own personal hell.

For Ebenezer, it shouldn't be hard to script a conversation where you confront him with what you learned from Sam. Either you win RPS: he slips up, they kick his ass, send him to his punishment and move on themselves - or you lose RPS: and the ghosts attack you much as they do now.

Alternatively, he could bribe you not to tell what you learned with partial info about the chests buried in the graveyard. You don't actually gain anything other than character traits, but there's nothing new to code either - all of those suggestions use mechanisms already in the game.

---

I haven't followed the conversational path yet where you agree with Jahan about his precious necromancy, but I don't imagine that would sit well with Madora. There don't seem to be a lot of consequences active yet for disagreeing with the henchmen.

Stabbey, i said myself i dont consider adding these decoy solutions and options to the murder quest as something really necessary.

Do me a favor and actually read what i wrote.
And dont go about "writing a whole new game" either. Thats just ridiculous.

I believe such things could be added without changing a single thing that is already in the game.
What im thinking about would be basically, just adding a few more dialogues and reactions to them. (which would take some work to do of course but not that much)
While none of it would actually change the resolution of the quest as it is now. Thelyron and Evelyn would still play their roles and you would discover that eventually anyway. All that remains the same.

Its just that you would add text only additions where you could, for example blaming Esmeralda or that undertaker, or something like that.
I know its not much of anything really, im just thinking out loud here on how that quest could be made a bit more diverse for other playthroughs.

You dont need to jump into defense of the devs, because they really dont have to do any of this and i said so myself too, as far as this particular quest is concerned.


.....


Youre right PeteNewell.

Thats correct.

And those are some nice suggestions for both of those sub quests.

If the resolutions to Samson and Desdemona was changed in that particular way (hopefully using actual details of that story as i explained) and she left - there would need to be some kind of clue given to the players that the problem is not entirely over and that there is yet something to see, or reason to return to the Lighthouse later.

Maybe it would be simpler to finish it right then and there because of it, by making the dialogue a bit stronger, using the actual content of that story.


As for Ebenezer, i agree, it would be elegant to tie in whether other ghosts fight against him or against you to the RPS outcome.

But the quest needs a better, fuller resolution - for him and the other ghosts, regardless of that.
So it should be made clear that - if you fight them all - the other ghosts were only sent to Hall of echoes as ordinary souls. Not as allies of Ebenezer. And that he got the deserved punishment - preferably as i described. Since personally i consider that the just balanced punishment in a case like that.

On the other hand he does admit to his crimes, when you confront him - and other ghosts there should react to it. If that is kept as is.
Since then it is clear he was tricking them not to continue into Hall of echoes for some selfish reasons of his own... probably so he has someone to talk to, which is a kind of experience.
And he likes experiences.


Which is why my suggestion makes both of the outcomes a punishment.

One in hell where he would get to experience all his crimes.
And the other as eternity of feeling absolutely nothing, except occasional pain when the players return to that place and "kill him" all over, while he would be practically completely helpless and unable to affect anything anymore. (he would attack you but his hits would cause no damage at all)

The point of that would not be to just enable players to be sadistic, because thats practically irrelevant in that case, but to ... well, make everyone think about it. At the very least.

Who's being ridiculous?

Brainiac,

Learning to synthetize is a skill, try to use it if you want average people to read your arrogant fanboy posts.

I didn't even read you wall of whatHiver, btw.

And I have to congrat you, because compared to you, I am a nice guy.

While i think Hiver could have a little abstract of his long text for people who want to get an overview, the points he makes are very good imo, and since they are (at least for the Ebenezer and Lighthouse ideas) text-only changes without added quest complexity, they should at least be considered. Adding alternate solutions to the murder quest would be nice, but that would also increase complexity in an already complex quest line, so i guess it cannot get implemented before release (unless the 3 non-beta areas already work perfectly... ).

Thx for the detailed write up Hiver. I think your points are valid and if we find time we'll do another pass on the lighthouse situation. Regarding alternate murder possibilities - that would be quite some work but obviously there's always the modding tools

Ok, sounds good. Hope that does not mean you wont consider adjusting Ebenezer ending too.
As pts says above, these are basically just text changes and adjustments, especially in the case of the Lighthouse ghost quest.

For Ebenezer some RPS can be (theoretically) thrown in too as PeteNewell suggested, since that mechanic is already in the game. Or smaller changes can be made to the fight at the end, regardless of that. Theoretically speaking.

But it could be just text changes, which was my original idea about it. Not only because of my personal beliefs about situations like that but, because it is not quite internally consistent right now.


***


Alternate options to the murder quest are not strictly speaking necessary as i said but yeah, it would be nice if someone would mod more gameplay to this start so its a bit more diverse on consequent playthroughs. If thats possible.

I only mentioned that because its a kind of a design theory problem when it comes to highly replayable RPGs, since, i dont know... water chip? Probably even earlier.


***


There will be no tl:dr abbreviations to any of my posts. That is intentional. Besides, its practically impossible to write about writing without being specific about what you mean and what you suggest and why.

Despite what internet taught some of you.

Additionally, If someone is so devolved he cannot read a bit longer post anymore then he shouldn't bother with replying either. Right?
If you want ...synthetisation... well, what can i say...

Ah, sorry! To long again, eh?

After playing more - i discovered that there are in fact, some sort of alternate solutions to the murder quest.
You really can have Esmeralda arrested, or even Robert the Mortician.
You can even accuse Aurues of being involved - although that doesnt have any specific consequence except a single angry reply - after which everything is ok again.

Then later on, it turns out Jake murder isnt that simple at all anyway.

Also, ive managed to see the main story of the game and the main narrative plot correctly for the first time. Previously i would go and visit dr. Thelyrons secret hut before finding out about Evelyn through other means or visiting her secret lab - which would completely ruin the main quest line.

Jake wouldnt appear at Evelyns lab in that case, and Aureus would display various dialogues in wrong ways, before or after he should have, which makes the whole deal look very confusing.
Now i went as the main plot would demand, in order and then all these things reveal themselves correctly.

Which altogether - is pretty good stuff.
I really, really like how all that is imagined and conceptualized and written.


I also should mention that i really love the short small dialogue overhead blurbs that many NPCs have. I often stop doing whatever i was onto, just to be able to read them properly.
Those are really great.



***


I would maybe suggest that dr. Thelyron sentences should be slightly adjusted, so that they reflect a bit better his real motivations, of the current problem and of his own personal motivations - which we discover later on.

Not in any way that would be revealing at all. But, in hindsight, knowing what we know about him, he should talk a bit differently, to better reflect these things.


***


I would suggest the same for Evelyn too. just a bit different style to her sentences, just some smaller adjustment of her ... tone, should do it.

When addressing the player characters and when explaining her relation with dr. Thelyron.

I would also suggest and argue that - knowing what we know - she would not just let you take her Star stone, no matter what. While she surely would not so simply disregard what happens when you touch it, and your sudden disappearance.

I think it would be much better if that was removed as a possibility in that situation altogether.
So the doctor would not need to reveal it to us in the way he does ... which is quite unbelievable considering what we find out later on.

And she would not be forced just to meekly accept that we are just going to take her stone, make it "die" and even teleport - disappear right infront of her - without any explanation or further reaction from her.


***


I know that her and the doctor are supposedly pretending and acting and that they wouldnt just reveal themselves easily. I agree with that. They shouldnt.

But currently, their dialogues before their involvement is revealed - make them look as if they are completely out of character.

- Their tone of talking should be slightly different - considering their involvement in the case.

- Their personal relations should be different, considering what we find out about their roles and positions in the Conduit hierarchy later on.

The good doctor should be more negative towards her, even provide hints about her malpractices - because he would probably try to set her up and remove her - by getting Source Hunters on her. He already does so to some extent, but that could be written better - with more doubt and suspicion and resentment, hinted at.

While she should be more brusque and dismissing of the "old backward ways" of the doctor and in general, while being more cagey about her secrets and much less revealing about the Stone - or not revealing at all. While she should try to cast doubt more on the doctor, Esmeralda and others too.


She should not willingly give up the stone to you at all.

Which would remove the very unconvincing scene of Hunters affecting the Stone and disappearing and then reappearing later without anyone reacting to it at all.

I think it would be best if there was only one Stone at the start. The one in the Inn in the room where murder happened. that is very hard to miss and if any further push needs to be made to make sure most of the players get it - then the companions and Source hunters themselves can be made to repeatedly remind the players about needing to go and investigate the room of the murder.



****



Additionally, i dont really see why Zixzax would give us only one Pyramid and not two...?
Or why the other would be where it is. At all.

That should be left to the players themselves to discover, with the current RPS minigame firing off as it does now, regardless if you come to that room using the pyramids or lockpicking.

As to how to use the pyramids - well Zixzax can surely set up a small demonstration in the Homestead, right? I think that would be mush more appropriate.

I think Evelyn refusing to give up her stone does make sense, although that's mainly because I dislike how teleporting away to the homestead interrupts what you were doing at the time. It breaks the flow, almost as if Bertia's dialogue should be adjusted so that as soon as you tell her about the sheep you get the option to compensate her so she won't have Roberts arrested instead of you've been interrupted mid-sentence by a completely different topic.

If you could only teleport after leaving the King Crab Tavern, after touching that Star Stone, that would solve my complaints about getting interrupted.

Completely removing the reference to Evelyn's stone and the blue lightning would make work for that, but it would mean a massive rewrite of the scene in the clinic, so it's not an ideal solution.

The teleport to Homestaed is merely a consequence of that scene.

I did suggest that should happen only after Hunters try to actually USE the Stone, which is how that goes when you get the one in the Black Cove, but for the narrative of the main story fo the game sake - it would be much better if he couldnt get Evelyn`s stone in this way at all.


According to what we know about the story, stones and Evelyns role in all of that - it doesnt make any sense for her to reveal it or to allow you to take it - or to give no reaction whatsoever to your very sudden and dramatic disappearance and subsequent return.


It would make more sense if we got it after fighting her later on.

While any teleport to Homestead, especially the first one -which should be the one in the Kings Crabb Inn - should happen only after we try to actually Use it.

Which can be easily emphasized with overhead text blurbs of Hunters themselves.
In as funny or tongue in cheek, or subversive manner as you want.

Eglander

This isn't so much a writing problem as a problem with quest design, but I think it fits here anyway.

Eglander wants you to kill Victoria. There are a couple solutions to dealing with this, but the one for dealing with it lawfully is not very feasible. Aureus will not arrest Eglander without evidence. The problem is that there isn't any. Eglander has a bloody amulet on him, which I guess is supposed to be the evidence you need to take, but it is over 400 gold and 0.7 weight. I'm not sure at all how much pickpocketing skill it'll take to get it, when 1 point into Pickpocketing has a limit of 160 gold and a 0.1 weight limit. 2 points give you a 360 gold and 0.2 weight limit.

On top of that, I don't even see what the hell a bloody amulet is supposed to prove at all! To me, this is a case for "Eglander's diary", a book filled with crazed writings from a clearly obsessed and dangerous person. It doesn't even have to have much text: just a summary suggesting that Eglander is clearly deranged and is obsessed with killing Victoria.

Ideally, I'd also like options through dialogue for starting combat, either with Eglander or Victoria, but I understand that's probably tricky or too much work to do because of a second character who can disagree. That would mean:

(Intentionally badly written placeholder text follows: This is just to give a rough context. This is not intended to be final final text.)

Rod: "I think you should die, Eglander."
Scarlett: "hold on, let's not be too hasty."
Rod: "He's clearly a threat (I/C/R)."
Scarlett: "Is it our place to be executioner?"
[Scarlett wins.]
"never mind we won't kill you at this time, but we could come back or change our minds later"

Victoria: What will we do about this crazed elf?
Rod: I think the crazed elf has the right idea
Scarlett: "hold on, let's not be too hasty."
Rod: Orcs bad
Scarlett: Murder bad
[Scarlett wins]
"never mind we won't kill you at this time, but we could come back or change our minds later"

Dialogue options for that kind of thing aren't really going to work with a partner who can disagree, so it's not really worth trying to make them work, I guess.

I'm with you on this one Stabbey. I just got done running through that quest again and it is quite awkward. I just wound up assaulting Eglander and being done with it. None of my characters had pickpocketing high enough, and I already knew Aureus wasn't going to do anything. And given the way I wanted to play my party, I didn't want to force Victoria to give up her precious amulet.

So even though I would have liked to play my party in a lawful manner, there really isn't a way to do that without having a shady thief in your party to pickpocket. I can only see two options in this case, and that is either abandon the quest or do the closest thing to what a lawful party would do and kill the ol' chap.

I agree with that. That sub-quest would certainly need some other ways of achieving that end of it.
Once i figured out pickpocketing is the only way to do it i never engaged with it again. I rather dont speak with him at all now when i play so the whole deal never even starts.

I originally thought it would be enough to have him clearly and loudly admitting what he wants.

But i guess Aureus doesnt want to trust my word for it.
However, it should be no problem to send some of his men with me to listen in to Englander rabid plans i think. And then just "bust in" and arrest him. Which could then turn into a fight, etc, etc.


There are several other such quests with surprisingly linear and strict solutions.
Ive mentioned a few elsewhere but i guess i could number them here too.


- The headless nick quest is very constrained in how you can solve it. It has only two specific steps that you must follow exactly and that break the quest if you dont. (strenght of 11 actually breaks that back but thats just a bug in a malfunction)


- Roberts gets the hard deal for using Berthia sheep, and i am forced to pressure him to give the money he received - which i then cannot use - have no option to - to affect the subsequent result.


- And while i am at it, as far as i see, there is no other way to escape the jail other then using a pyramid and making that deal inside, which, seeing how precious and rare main attributes points are isnt really acceptable. Most players will simply reload, rather then do that.

You cant use another character to lockpick the jail cell doors, since there is a guard right in front of the cell - that stands there forever.

There is no way to fight the guards, atleast without other companions... i guess.
Too much for a single Source Hunter in any case.

- No way to use magic for any of it.
- No way to talk to Aureus about it, to make a deal.
- No way to talk to the guards and maybe bribe them.
- Or to use a shovel and dig an escape tunnel from the outside.

Sounds like the amulet simply needs tuning... (and I'm sure once you pick it and try to interact it will show exactly why it's proof ;)).

I don't see a problem with a single solutionbranch only being there if you invest the proper skill points. Just like some quests need animal talking.
Unlike those you can actually still complete them some different way, you can't say that there.

Some solution might need blacksmithing (to notice the strange markings of a sword for example), lorefinding (that's not a REGULAR McGuffin or actually combatskills (my firemage notices how it's not a regular fire attack but something very special etc.).
And there's nothing wrong with that. Instead, it's definitely something I think a good RPG should have.

The amulet has no description, and picking it up and wearing it does nothing. You are right in that it might possibly explain why it's evidence if you hand it over to Aureus.

My problem is that not so much that the "dangerous guy gets thrown in jail" solution is only possible by Pickpocketing, but that it's ridiculously obnoxious to try and solve it USING Pickpocketing.

You need quite a bit of Pickpocketing skill to just lift the thing. Probably rank 4 or even 5. (I can't rule out Rank 3, but I doubt that would be enough.) The amulet weighs 0.7 and Pickpocket 2's limit is 0.2.

I CAN'T hand it over to Aureus as evidence because the only way to get it at this stage is to take it from his corpse.

That's why I think the proper solution would be to make it easier to pickpocket... certainly easier than writing more options to get that amulet another way.

It's a bit too much to expect lvl 4 of anything in Cyseal 0_o

(also description and stuff would be awesome ;))

I dont mind quest being built for specific skillsets, but this one isnt introduced as pickpocketing based quest.

It just has a single solution. When dealing with Englander directly.

You do have two or three RPS options when you reveal that to Victoria. You can talk her into giving some kind of mcguffin amulet to you which then convinces Englander you killed her and he presumably goes away. - i dint bother checking it really.

Or you can pickpocet it of her, but atleast you have some choice there.

Or you can say youll handle it some different way.
But that different way would be neat if it had some more options.