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I wouldnt agree with your main premise there Hassat.

You bring up old tragedy of Troika studios, and that serves as a very good example.

Especially because they did not go bankrupt because of investments into the game before release at all. They bankrupted because they were forced by Activision - their publisher, to release the Vampire Masquerade: Bloodlines very early, while it was still very buggy and incomplete - on the same day that Half Life 2 was released. (using the same engine but a worse version of it, no wonder).

Which resulted in very bad press and very low sales.

(And i hate to remember they were bidding for rights to Fallout... that went to Bethesda thanks to mr. Fargo - as he actually likes to brag nowadays...)


A buggy release can bury a game completely. Maybe even a company, depending on how much money is riding on a particular game. Because current game business depend a lot on the first few days and weeks of sales - and therefore on early reviews by the "game media".

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No quest-markers... this is obviously a design decision, and a good one, going against the modern trend of pointing out everything (to the solution of puzzles to boot!)

If you want to gather may I suggest Drakensang. It has it. It's also extremely super-dull.

And the rest you can't honestly say it's easy to implement smirk

And again with the 'fanboys'... I think you still haven't grasped how I don't even OWN the game yet? Again?

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*Sees Hiver's post*

It's not the full story you mention. Vampire: Bloodlines was hit VERY HARD by the leaking of Half Life 2's Source Engine source code. Since they didn't allow any games to be released before Half Life 2 using that engine, they had to delay the game despite not having the financial situation to do so. And they went belly-up, unable to patch their mess of a game due to having an old Source version.

If they could release when they planned, and didn't get delayed due to Half Life 2, it might have been an entirely different situation for them. They weren't forced to release due to Activision, but due to money. But too late... and only due to an external factor they couldn't control.

And that... was the lesson of my post. Delays can be deadly. And then your game can't be fixed. And you get the Bloodlines situation.

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They're in a rough spot. They're always going to want to have more time to polish and tweak the game, but the longer the project stays in development to fix old problems, the more "new problems" get created (everything from becoming obsolete, to running out of funding, to losing your spouse). It's a tricky balance.

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No quest-markers... this is obviously a design decision, and a good one, going against the modern trend of pointing out everything

And you still don't get the difference between "show me where I should do the quest" and "show me on the map where I can find the inn, the market, the legion camp, the gates, the harbor" when asking your way to cysealan citizens. Very very very poor design "decision", because it wouldn't take any "difficulty" from the quests, and it would help the newcomers navigate in Cyseal, all that being very easily explainable. Just asking your way to citizens. Yeah, out-of-worldish to ask for proper effective interaction, I know.

Just because gathering is dull in a game means it has to be dull in another. Especially if you consider EVERYTHING is ready for it in the current build. And "gathering" most stuff from crates do sounds a little dull, mind you.

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And the rest you can't honestly say it's easy to implement
Of course I am not supposed to say it because coding blah blah blah, but I will anyway. Yeah, easy to implement. Because it already exists. Needing the proper tool equipped already exists. Map markers already exists. Having them appear as a convo result alreay exists. Loot RNG already exists. Components already exists. Everything already exists. But just mixing eggs, mustard and olive oil doesn't always make a mayonnaise.

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I think you still haven't grasped how I don't even OWN the game yet? Again?
Awww I am sorry, you have been defending the game so much, making amazing bug reports (truly amazing, no sarcasm intended), that I thought you owned the game (this one IS sarcastic).

Godammit, ranting about the same ol' issues again :-(. I think it's a trait of fanboyz, never to admit they can be wrong about anything.

Last edited by Cromcrom; 22/05/14 04:46 PM.

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It's that hard to grasp I went in blind (actually with fear of co-op and turn base ruining it) and simply like the game?

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That maybe is a big difference between you and me. You are lucky to like the game. I want to like it.
We need passionate people. "Fanboyz". And we need people to passionately remind them how much passion can also be a blinding force.


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But there is no "free" for gamedevs.

Do you count the thousands of hours alpha and beta testers spend playing and reporting as being "free" for the devs ? I would.

I really think this EA thing is new, and can change tremendously a developping cycle of a game, compared to old ones which might have had less feedback. I mean, almost instant feedback and bug reports. Can be tricky of course. Interesting anyways, but the amount of saved money must be honestly taken into account.

Crap, I double posted, sorry :-(

Last edited by Cromcrom; 22/05/14 04:58 PM. Reason: double posting :-(

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
*Sees Hiver's post*

It's not the full story you mention. Vampire: Bloodlines was hit VERY HARD by the leaking of Half Life 2's Source Engine source code. Since they didn't allow any games to be released before Half Life 2 using that engine, they had to delay the game despite not having the financial situation to do so. And they went belly-up, unable to patch their mess of a game due to having an old Source version.

If they could release when they planned, and didn't get delayed due to Half Life 2, it might have been an entirely different situation for them. They weren't forced to release due to Activision, but due to money. But too late... and only due to an external factor they couldn't control.

And that... was the lesson of my post. Delays can be deadly. And then your game can't be fixed. And you get the Bloodlines situation.


In short - none of that is true. You should check the relevant articles and info about it better. Wiki article about the game should serve as a good start.

It was Activision that forced the game out early - on the same bloody day as Half Life 2, which is instant suicide. Activision was financing the game, not Troika. They wanted it out so they can cut the "losses" and ride on the hype of HL2 - which was an utterly idiotic logic and decision.

Valve, on other hand did not provide several updates parts of the engine to Troika, resulting in whole parts of the game being very, very buggy.

All these are old truths that are very well known and you cant just claim differently because it would suit your argument better. Because you want the game out sooner.
That game and Troika with it went down because it was released too soon, with a lot of bugs.
Thats a fact.

It got very bad reviews - especially when compared with HL2 that released on the same day and was largely bug free - while being done on the SAME ENGINE - which immediately made everyone think how bad and incompetent the Troika devs are - all of that made it sell very badly - which was the direct final reason for Troika going out of business!

Other reasons were previous games like Arcanum and ToEE which were also released to early because of the pressure of the publishers - and were also quite buggy on release. ToEE was almost unplayable on most computers when it came out!

Which was the reason they also got bad press and SOLD BADLY.
Bloodlines was the final big stake through the heart.


...

now, go do your homework, get properly informed and dont make me remember old traumas again.

I trust i dont need to mention Obsidian and all the flak they get for their buggy releases and how much it hurts them as a company.

They are back on their feet now but there was a time not so long ago when massive layoffs were being served around there.



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*-sighs-* Did I just get lucky when I played the game? I had fun....I hope the game comes out as planned still...

One major thing everyone is forgetting is..we get the tools. We as the players can change what we don't like.

Lots of love to Larian employees <3. I personally feel the game is mind blowing.

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Sadly, yes, all of that is true... they didn't have much choice to release with HL2. It was then, or never... they couldn't delay more than they already had due to HL2's leaks.

And yes, I am well aware of Obsidian, just google me wink
The layoffs had nothing to do with that though... only with canned projects...

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Originally Posted by ZoddGuts
Originally Posted by Lotrotk
Originally Posted by Cromcrom
Its the base of players you will have to persuade, not the few fanboyz here


There's a great variety of forum members. There are many who'd like to see the game postponed by months if that would mean lesser bugs. And there are the more impatient ones too. And there are the polite and impolite ones as well ; )


He's really a special case, isn't he. Good for laugh though.


He's one of my favs. It makes me wish I had enough money to buy a Mac. I assume that perfect computer has CrumCrum's perfect games that he's authored over there. Too bad he won't port them to the PC for us to enjoy, we just get second rate stuff like this all the time. frown

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Originally Posted by Ellary
One major thing everyone is forgetting is..we get the tools. We as the players can change what we don't like.


I haven't seen or heard how flexible it will be, but if I can go in and change skills damage #'s, what NPC AI uses, HP #'s etc. Then as you say, my version will end up being right to how I like it, baby bear style.

M&M X gave us csv files for adjusting a ton of #'s, I had a fairly modified version and loved the game play balance tailored right for me. If I can do that with DOS, I will give it 11 out of 10 and I hate the game as much as Crum. smile

Give us additional dock-able power bars! (I just had to smile


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I assume that perfect computer has CrumCrum's perfect games that he's authored over there. Too bad he won't port them to the PC for us to enjoy, we just get second rate stuff like this all the time.

I suppose, by saying "crumcrum", you are refering to me, and I suppose you are criticizing, but I don't really understand what you are writing.


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Originally Posted by Horrorscope
Originally Posted by Ellary
One major thing everyone is forgetting is..we get the tools. We as the players can change what we don't like.


I haven't seen or heard how flexible it will be, but if I can go in and change skills damage #'s, what NPC AI uses, HP #'s etc. Then as you say, my version will end up being right to how I like it, baby bear style.

M&M X gave us csv files for adjusting a ton of #'s, I had a fairly modified version and loved the game play balance tailored right for me. If I can do that with DOS, I will give it 11 out of 10 and I hate the game as much as Crum. smile

Give us additional dock-able power bars! (I just had to smile



Hi ^_^ from my understanding, pretty much most things can be altered. Skills/Spells. Monsters and more!

I asked in world chat when Lar Q was on if respawns can be added in the tools. he said yes! and I think that was to me.. so I am not to worried about what they do~ as they are giving the tools so I can spend a week or so and make the game how I please.

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