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Woah! I feel like this thread is getting seriously derailed. Can we get back to talking about the two main points of hybrid chars and spells books etc?

I know people have beef with each other and of course anyone can express that. I felt some of the replies to what I said were also unfair and/or narrow-minded but there was plenty of people who didn't respond that way.

Just my two cents. I know things need to be resolved, I just didn't want the thread to get too zany.


Originally Posted by rejam


Just because my char wants to be a fire mage does not mean that the world and the skill vendors should make this an easy path. If my char cant find fire spells, then they will have to search harder or re-evaluate their path.


This is absurd. Re-evaluate their path? Skillpoints are permanently assigned. If you're okay with wasting a bunch of skill points, then okay. But I'm not. The game's systems should function together in a coherent and sensible way. Which means if I put points into pyro, then I should be able to buy the fire spells for my character that I want/need. Not being able to do so (which sometimes happens as a result of the excessive vendor randomness) means the system is broken in some fashion.

I don't want things "handed to me on a silver platter" as one or two people have accused, I just want to be able to use the skills my character has acquired via my choices. This doesn't some unreasonable in any way.

I think we already have to search hard enough. You have to run all over town to different people to buy different things. This I actually enjoy, but more of it would be tedious.

Last edited by Ripper; 29/06/14 05:57 PM.
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My bad for contributing to the derail. Back to your point.

If this were some kind of minimalist/survivor horror/grimdark angst-fest, I would have no problem with having to hope and scrounge for basic resources and the means to develop *any* skills at all.

But this is a fantasy romp. In-jokes, broad humor, silliness, cartoony graphics and animation. Different mood, different approach, presumably a different audience with different expectations.

So when you offer players a number of functional paths and archetype approaches, and tell them they can combine freely, mix and match across those archetypes and roles, this makes sense to me. Hybrid characters are the kind of approach the game purports to encourage, and many of them work just dandy. And are a lot of fun, which seems to me to be the point.

But to then set up game mechanics that will stymie many players in basic role development - right out of the gate - and frustrate the hell out of those players; that seems... counter-productive in terms of game design and viability. To me. Others apparently differ. <shrug>



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Originally Posted by Ripper

This is absurd. Re-evaluate their path? Skillpoints are permanently assigned. If you're okay with wasting a bunch of skill points, then okay. But I'm not. The game's systems should function together in a coherent and sensible way. Which means if I put points into pyro, then I should be able to buy the fire spells for my character that I want/need. Not being able to do so (which sometimes happens as a result of the excessive vendor randomness) means the system is broken in some fashion.


Just because a vendor doesn't happen to have the skills you want, doesn't mean the skills aren't available in game. You just don't get the skill exactly when you want it. It adds some variety to the game even if you were to do a new run with exactly the same char build.
I think it adds to the enjoyment of the game. And I don't think that is absurd.

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Hybrids are good as full supports. Max your speed and buff all laugh

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Originally Posted by rejam

Just because a vendor doesn't happen to have the skills you want, doesn't mean the skills aren't available in game. You just don't get the skill exactly when you want it. It adds some variety to the game even if you were to do a new run with exactly the same char build.
I think it adds to the enjoyment of the game. And I don't think that is absurd.


The issue is that you only get a handful of skills per level in that skill, which mean that, at least for early game, you can quickly fall into 'this character is unplayable because he doesn't have the only offensive ability he could have'.

It's less of an issue for higher-level skills as you would have already a good deal of versatility, but at first it can cause problems.

This is why, for me, a good balance would be that skill tomes of low level stuff can be gotten quasi-reliably so that your character gets playable, but for higher level stuff it's much harder. You can 'expect' to have them by endgame (especially if some are handplaced in some dungeons), but you could miss some spells you would want for a good long time (or even, if unlucky, not get a couple).


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Creating an unplayable character is not as easy as you make out. Just because you don't have the most powerful spell for your level doesn't make that character unplayable.

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Originally Posted by rejam
Creating an unplayable character is not as easy as you make out. Just because you don't have the most powerful spell for your level doesn't make that character unplayable.

No, but when you have a low-level character that doesn't have /the only viable offensive spell of his chosen element/, it can.

Hence why i separate "low-level" with mid/end-levels. It matters much less once your character has some versitality if you have to wait a bit before the next big thing (and it makes finding it great), but when you are at low-level it can be crippling.

It's bit like how in BG2 the only way to get pierce-magic was through random loot. You almost always got it- but when you didn't, it was 'oops, can't do half the content right now'.

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Hiver

Therefore you loose the argument vehemently. And laughably.

He wasn't making an argument, he was just making up a bunch of unfounded dime-store psychoanalysis crap because I DARED to disagree with him.

No, you lose the argument because you devolve into all those pathetic personal insults and screaming accusations of whatever fallacy randomly falls out of your head. Again.

Just like this one above. Which is nothing but an empty assertion, a declarative statement you simply invent yourself without providing any proof of it.

You can disagree with him. Nobody is denying your right to disagree.
Thats just another invented fallacy you use.

Originally Posted by Stabbey

Quote
Btw, she, or he is right and you are completely wrong.
All of your "argument", which is just a long ranting complaint coming from the crying mentality approach to the game - is very similar, if not actually exactly the same as all that crying and complaining about running into a few early enemies using poison clouds that killed your characters - WHILE YOU repeatedly refused to ADAPT your tactics and USE THE AVAILABLE resources to increase the poison resistance.


Your arguments were ridiculous then and they still are now,

Why? Because you say so?


Originally Posted by Stabbey

since the point was "hey, maybe an attack which has the tankiest character getting basically one-hit killed from full health, while also being an AoE which can hit multiple chars is doing a bit too much damage!"

It was doing a bit too much damage because you did not pay any attention or ever attempted tpo use the resources to counter it that the game readily provides... being an RPG game no less.

Originally Posted by Stabbey

I did adapt my tactics, if you bothered to remember. That doesn't mean that there was not a problem.

The problem was your refusal to adhere to most basic and simple RPG gameplay rules of engagement.


Originally Posted by Stabbey

Your claim of the solution being "USE THE AVAILABLE RESOURCES" is inherently contradictory with erra "being completely right", since erra's idea is to arbitrarily make resources (in the form of skills) not available because random is awesome.

Skills are not resources in this context. And i wouldnt call them resources even in some high level overview either. So no... its only you who is inherently contradictory to common sense.

Erra is also not arguing for anything like that, you strawmn argument dispenser.

When we are talking about resources in the game, it is a very specific term - meaning items provided to you in the game with which you can reduce or remove specific dangers, increase your character resistances to specific damages.

Skill are on the other hand specific capabilities. Offensive, environmental and defensive.

I dont care how similar that looks to your brain. We should keep the specifics separate for clarity of discussion and to avoid pushing all and everything into some gigantic global empty assertion.... which is what you did there. Because you have no real actual arguments.


What erra is saying is that it is not only alright but one of the staples of RPG gameplay to have some randomization in the gameplay, in the availability of the skills. It is certainly nothing strange or foreign in RPG games which are most often based on player not being able to have anything and everything all at once - which actually creates and makes possible to have specific different builds and different playthrough through the game.

Unless we are talking about mass market fake RPGs that are really action games - and by the internal non-logic of your arguments, use of fallacies, strawmans and ad hominems - it seems you are exactly that kind of player.

Someone who cries about not having a specific skill - because you just dont want to adapt to anything at all. But rather cry, scream insults and splurge fallacies at anyone who doesnt agree with you.

Thats a thinking of a mass market brainless drone.

You should not be playing any real RPG games at all.
Instead, you should focus on games that only pretend to be RPGs but actually are created to force feed egoes like that with constant, never ending barrage of everything and a kitchen sink.



Originally Posted by Stabbey

Additionally, the poisoncloud arrow issue is a pretty odd example to use in defense of erra.

What does time has to do with anything? What kind of laughable logic is that?

Originally Posted by Stabbey

Your said it was fine to leave it as it was, because all you had to do was make sure that your characters equipment and supplies were focused around food and equipment that offered poison resistance. That reminds me of erra's dislike for a rigid, inflexible approach to solving problems.

I said nothing about being "Focused" stabbey. But i guess if you dont use strawman arguments you would have literally nothing to say.

I said you merely should bloody use them sometimes - instead of running into enemies without thinking. And then crying and screaming and accusing the game being made badly.


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Originally Posted by Ripper
Woah! I feel like this thread is getting seriously derailed. Can we get back to talking about the two main points of hybrid chars and spells books etc?


Yep. It's designer choices, nothing is wrong, it's opinion.

I find hybrids easily playable at the hardest setting in the game.

I don't mind fishinf for spell books, think of it as a book store and these are old books. Sometimes they have what you want and sometimes they don't. That said, a little voice inside of me says I'd like them to always be there. But such is life. I'd like them to be sorted by name and level and welp... nope.

I'm cool with both, so put me down for that!

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