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#562311 01/02/15 03:11 PM
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About the change to Tenebrium...

THE CHANGE

I tested it out. What it does, for those who aren't sure yet is that now Tenebrium skill adds no damage to your weapon. It only allows you to equip higher quality Tenebrium items. Only the one-handed/two-handed/bow/crossbow abilities add damage.

Bonus damage formulas have also been changed: Now weapons with magic damage (except staves) do most of their damage as normal type, with 30% added on as elemental. Tenebrium is also added on as 30 percent.


THE PROBLEM

But the percentage of Tenebrium damage added stays at 30%, regardless of how much Tenebrium ability you need to equip the thing.

An argument could be made that you are getting the equivalent of an Rank 3 added-damage Tenebrium ability with only rank 1... but I'm not sure that's a great argument. I suspect that the percentage of Tenebrium damage will stay at 30% even for items requiring Ten. 4 or Ten. 5.

Because the percentage of Tenebrium damage you get does not scale with the ability points required to use the weapon, that means that no one has any incentive to put points into Tenebrium past Rank 3, because you're now getting 30% damage when you would ordinarily be getting 40% or 50%. Since the percentage of damage is 30% for all added damage, elemental or otherwise, and since only points in the base weapon type boosts damage, you are better off sticking with a non-Tenebrium magical weapon.

You are not "getting your money's worth" for those ability points.

Having to invest points into two different abilities has the feel of an ability tax, and it will discourage people from using Tenebrium weapons, especially the more powerful ones.

Having Tenebrium replace your weapon mastery was not great, but changing Tenebrium to no longer have an effect other than being able to wield stuff has the side effect of annoying players who had been used to the pre-v251 versions where only Tenebrium mattered. Now some of them have spent a bunch of ability points on something that is only a tax.


A WRONG DIRECTION

Larian, you've been going the wrong way with Tenebrium Handling from the beginning. In the alpha, people pointed out that the Tenebrium skill seemed to be a weapon-type skill, and asked what that would mean for people who put points into other weapon skills. Unfortunately, you (Larian) quietly removed the Tenebrium skill from the alpha because it was semi-spoilerish without mentioning how it was going to be used, so people were unable to give feedback on the way you were going to implement it.

I suspect that you've probably had Tenebrium (or Black Rock, or whatever other names it was earlier) as a weapon ability in your design docs for so long during development that changing it after the kickstarter never occurred to you. That's natural.

But the Kickstarter added new tools to your toolbox. Specifically, Talents.


SUGGESTION

I think that Tenebrium Handling should have been implemented as a TALENT, not an ability. After completing the certain quest or reading the certain book, you are automatically granted the free "Tenebrium Handling" Talent. Description: "Lets you safely handle Tenebrium without getting the Rot."

What I would do in a patch would be to add Tenebrium Handling as a Talent, granted by the quest and the book. Then remove it as an Ability (and remove the affix so it no longer appears on magical items), and refund players back the amount of ability points spent on Tenebrium (minus the first, free one) so they can spend those ability points elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen, though.

What are everyone else's thoughts on Tenebrium in v251?

Last edited by Stabbey; 01/02/15 08:35 PM. Reason: typo
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But it seems crafting tenebrium items requires a high level of that skill. Adding a bar to a weapon doesn't work below level 4 or 5. Even with crafting maxed out.

Last edited by cossayos; 01/02/15 04:56 PM.
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Originally Posted by cossayos
But it seems crafting tenebrium items requires a high level of that skill. Adding a bar to a weapon doesn't work below level 4 or 5. Even with crafting maxed out.


Well, not letting you craft something you can't wield is certainly sensible.

***

This post prompted me to check how crafting Tenebrium weapons works. I had Bairdotr craft a level 16 Hazel Bow into a Tenebrium Bow. Woooooowwwwwwwwwwww.

The Hazel Bow's stats before crafting:
  • Piercing: 67-116


If you craft it with Tenebrium, it becomes:
  • Piercing: 67-116
  • Tenebrium: 20-35


It does not matter what your level of Tenebrium, Crafting, or Blacksmithing is, it only ever adds 20-35 Tenebrium damage. Also, the new item does NOT have a "Requires Tenebrium" attribute. That's a bug.

I have not seen any items which have Tenebrium 4 and 5 required, and that's at level 17. So Tenebrium 4 and 5 is literally a complete waste of ability points. It does nothing and does not improve the quality of Tenebrium-crafted items.

I also tested it with a metal axe (to see if that would make Blacksmithing do anything), same result.

Last edited by Stabbey; 01/02/15 06:41 PM.
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Completely agree. You have to get to Tenebrium 3 now, in order to create weapons and wield them, but not more. Then again, at least the normal ability (e.g. Bow) boni do apply now.

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I also agree with Stabbey's suggestion, it should be a talent, points refunded and weapon skill teneb removed. Crafting should always take into account the *actual* crafting skill.

Back in Alpha we brought this issue up and Teneb was removed silently, only to come back flashing in release (for no good nor proper reason!). This is one of these tiny things where your Alpha testers were right from the get go. Teneb should not be a weapon skill, which means it shouldn't be a skill at all, but a talent.

If you want to be fancy Teneb Handling and Teneb Crafting could be 2 talents, but then teneb crafting would have to add at least 100 to 150 dmg so that a 50% boost or something from handling talent would make it worth to even pick... considering the point where you get them (last 25% of the game) there is even an argument to make to make the book and quest add (both?) these talents to 1 char.

Either way, very odd change this patch brought.

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I liked the change in theory, but it sounds like the execution isn't the best. What if they made the Tenebrium skill give a small (3-5%, though I'm leaning towards 4% per point) damage increase that stacked with the weapon skills so it was more than just a tax, but it wasn't a huge damage bonus either. Maybe if there were a talent that required level 5 Tenebrium and offered something cool like healing when you deal Tenebrium damage, there'd be some incentive to max Tenebrium out. Maybe +1 Tenebrium could be a possible modifier on legendary Tenebrium weapons to make it a bit easier to max it out? And higher Tenebrium points should slightly improve Tenebrium crafting as well.

It does seem rather late in the game when you first get Tenebrium to reward five points in Tenebrium in addition to five points in a weapon skill. You have what, 6 to 8 levels left before you beat the game after you first get access to Tenebrium (unless you rush to Sacred Stone or something)? The character would have to spend a lot of her points on Tenebrium for relatively little benefit right now. And requirements have to go up practically every item level or faster so that getting five points is worth it for more than just the last couple fights (which I believe have a lot of Tenebrium resistant enemies anyway).

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If it's just a talent, we're going back to the original situation; all other weapons get abandoned for Tenebrium only. Why would you spend 15 points on, say, 2-handed weapon if you can do the same damage or more for absolute free!

So it makes absolute sense to have it a cost, paid in points. Also you seem to scoff a 33%(!!!) increase in damage as being useless. What?
That's not even taking into account that regular damage has easy resistances all enemies have, and tenebrium is pretty much full damage on all enemies, and the damage easily scoffs over +50%.
So no, I don't think it "only" adding so little bonus damage is a bad thing...

So then it comes around 'it's not useful beyond 3 for boni'... which also raises the valid question that a LOT of skills this isn't the case. Most magic top out at 4, repair is best at 1 and I probably could list a lot more if it wasn't so long since I actually booted the game 0_o

But no, I can't be sad that overpowered Tenebrium got reduced to what it always had to be. We all knew this was coming anyway...

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I don't think the current Tenebrium skill is comparable to a magic discipline or Blacksmithing. The latter still offer some benefits when boosted to 5 as opposed to Tenebrium. Whether you can make use of the highest level spells or superior weapons / armor made with Blacksmithing 5 is another matter. As of Tenebrium, however, it simply doesn't make sense to raise the skill beyond 3 at the moment.

I like the idea of it giving a small (Tenebrium) damage boost. Maybe 5% per rank?

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I also noticed, even before the patch, that improving your weapons doesn't work on tenebrium gear. Neither bowstrings nor tormented souls are accepted for that kind of gear.

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Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter
If it's just a talent, we're going back to the original situation; all other weapons get abandoned for Tenebrium only. Why would you spend 15 points on, say, 2-handed weapon if you can do the same damage or more for absolute free!


What are you talking about? You're making no sense. I don't think you've actually taken a look at Tenebrium weapons since the patch.

Firstly, you are not getting the same damage or more for absolute free. Weapons no longer work the same way. Now weapons do mostly Piercing/Slashing/Crushing type damage, with Elemental or Tenebrium damage added on as 30% of the base damage. So instead of getting a bow that does, say:

Tenebrium: 67-116

What you get is actually:

Piercing: 67-116
Tenebrium: 20-35

That is not "the same damage for free". It's the same damage as you would get from an elemental-damage weapon which CAN, actually drop or be looted for free.


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So it makes absolute sense to have it a cost, paid in points. Also you seem to scoff a 33%(!!!) increase in damage as being useless. What?


No. I am scoffing at a 30% increase in damage as being crappy because it stays at 30% even if you boost your Tenebrium skill to Rank 4 or 5, which if it were spent on normal weapons, would be 40% or 50%. I am scoffing at those ranks in particular as being a waste of points.


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That's not even taking into account that regular damage has easy resistances all enemies have, and tenebrium is pretty much full damage on all enemies, and the damage easily scoffs over +50%.
So no, I don't think it "only" adding so little bonus damage is a bad thing...


Yeah at this point you have demonstrated that you haven't actually read my post or seen the changes for yourself.

I'm not sure how your math works to figure that needing to spend twice the ability points to get the same or lesser damage is actually a damage improvement.

Sure people COULD spend it, but since stuff with the same amount of damage drops for free, it doesn't seem all that worthwhile.


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So then it comes around 'it's not useful beyond 3 for boni'... which also raises the valid question that a LOT of skills this isn't the case. Most magic top out at 4, repair is best at 1 and I probably could list a lot more if it wasn't so long since I actually booted the game 0_o


"Other skills also suck past 3" is not an argument for having Tenebrium be crappy. It's an argument for making other skills not suck past 3.

You haven't booted the game up in ages? So why are you coming in here and literally talking out your butt about things you haven't actually seen?

I haven't seriously played D:OS in a few weeks myself, but at least I actually went and checked things out and tested them before I came in here to talk out my butt.


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But no, I can't be sad that overpowered Tenebrium got reduced to what it always had to be. We all knew this was coming anyway...


Oh, I'm not complaining that a change happened to Tenebrium, changing how it works was a good idea, because it was poorly implemented before. I am complaining because this change is ALSO in need of improvement. Is pointing that out okay with you?

If nothing else, there should be changes to crafting with Tenebrium bars, because Tenebrium is the ability you need to craft with them, and higher levels of Tenebrium have no effect on the quality of the produced item.

Changing how it works in existing saves, instead of it being a "new game only" change has caused some problems with people who were used to the old system and built their chars around Temebrium being the best place to put weapons points. Don't think that I'm complaining because it broke anything for me - far from it. I never put points into Tenebrium with my party and I finished the game well before the patch hit, so this does not affect any of my games.

I'm not merely complaining. I'm also giving a suggestion for an alternative way it could be done:

Since Tenebrium no longer adds damage, and is merely a prerequisite, and since higher-Tenebrium-rank-required weapons do not have a higher proportion of Tenebrium damage than Tenebrium-rank-1 weapons, then if Tenebrium Handling were to become a Talent granted for free from the quest/book, it would not actually change the game balance at all.

Last edited by Stabbey; 02/02/15 01:56 PM. Reason: alternative
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You were talking about adding a Tenebrium bar to something.
But yes, even if the same 30% now instead of 100% that's still better than the magical variations since, as mentioned, few enemies resist Tenebrium.

Sure, but I always (and still) think Two-Handed, Single are totally junk anyway. Now they're a little less junk, but still junk.

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I'm not sure how your math works to figure that needing to spend twice the ability points to get the same or lesser damage is actually a damage improvement.

It's called Balancing.
You now need to spend more points to get overpowered than before? WHAT A TRAGEDY! I shed crocodile tears.
And you know what the funny thing is? It's *STILL* overpowered... heh.

Cause I don't actually need to play the game to remember Tenebrium was seriously OP, and this seems a good way (and often suggested might I add) to actually reign it in.

And no, I don't disagree we can talk about improvements... I do disagree however about statements as 'revert it' or 'buff it!' seeing it's still-OP state.

There's re-spec so it's not really much of a problem to reconfigure "on the fly". Now if this was a hard core RPG with permanent decsions on character development I would agree, but it's not.
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Since Tenebrium no longer adds damage, and is merely a prerequisite, and since higher-Tenebrium-rank-required weapons do not have a higher proportion of Tenebrium damage than Tenebrium-rank-1 weapons, then if Tenebrium Handling were to become a Talent granted for free from the quest/book, it would not actually change the game balance at all.

Yes, it would, since you would get "for free" higher powered weaponry. The balance is it's costing price in skill points.
More powerful weapon? More skillpoints investment. Makes sense to me rather than "more powerful weapon? Sure, here, it's free!"

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Yes, Tenebrium isn't really resisted by much, and it tends to be the lowest resistance on things that do resist it. That still sounds more like a case of "enemy resistance tweaking needed" to me, but that is a point.

A much-pointed out problem with respecs is that you lose all your skills and don't get them back as skillbooks. Having to go around tracking them all down again is an unnecessary annoyance, and that's even if the game didn't have one-time-only skillbooks which can be lost forever through re-specing.

Getting Tenebrium 4 or more is still a waste of points. Because you're not getting a more powerful weapon. Crafting a weapon with a Ten. bar requires Ten. 3, but you get the same result from crafting with Ten 3, 4 and 5. Never seen a Ten. 4 or 5 weapon drop, either.

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Really, Larian?

Are you purposefully screwing the pooch in order to call me back?

You BREAK something that worked instead of actually fixing some of the things that are broken, like the frequent sound breaks (why doesn't mining have sound????), the disappearing items, character issues such as the empty armour bug and various others, the ridiculous difference in difficulty moving from Cyceal to Silverglen, I maxed Cyceal out at 10th level then traveled to Silverglen and they're all 12.. WTF?..or maybe even the fact that there is bugger all to do in Sacred Stones.. are they not worth addressing before you look for things to break?

Tenebrium should have remained an 'ore' to be crafted. The increasing Tenebrium weapon skill accounted for the fact that they'd do better damage, yes, you lost the points spent on the other weapons but that was reasonable considering the jump in damage because of a less widescale resistance to it, THEN you could put an element on it... You then had a choice to use weapons with a far better damage or have more skill points, now the points spent on it are so fragemented as to be useless and pointlessly convoluted.

By this idiotic decision you've completely broken Tenembrium, and made crafting elements to weaponry far less attractive. Why have an extensive weapon/damage crafting system then neuter it. Now it's been shoehorned into a point skill WHERE THE POINTS ARE A PURE WASTE..

Tenebrium weapon with elemental damage=interesting.. normal weapon with element where tenebrium is just another option... not so much

....and you're supposed to be bringing out another balance patch.. what's that going to break?.. And why are you only addressing (ERRONEOUSLY PERCEIVED) problems that relate to combat?.. aren't there NON-combat issues IN THE RPG to be addressed? That was rhetorical, OF COURSE THERE ARE.

Good grief, Larian, pull your head out of your arse for god's sake.
I thought I'd make my first post back a civil one... the real shit can wait for comments after your next round of tinkering.


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Larian Studios !!
Don't say I warned you all the time ... to not make things worser trying to please as much as possible gamers, that's really MISSION IMPOSSIBLE !!

Promise your fans great things, but in the meanwhile making things more worse than before ... ?

Neverteless, I appreciate Larian Studios :
even if they take sometimes to much "hay on their rake" ....

I appreciate their courage !
They've the guts to take risks promising things & changing things,
not truly knowing ("Is that so ?" I ask myself ) where it all is going to END !?!


Hopefully it all ends nice and without wars,
Not somewhere floating between the stars ...
Where nobody can control anything anymore ...
So Divinity: Original Sin loose it's good score !

Good Luck to everybody !


On 7th of february 2015 : I start a new adventure in the Divinity world of Original Sin,
it's a Fantastic Freaking Fabulous Funny ... it's my All Time Favorite One !
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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Yes, Tenebrium isn't really resisted by much, and it tends to be the lowest resistance on things that do resist it. That still sounds more like a case of "enemy resistance tweaking needed" to me, but that is a point.

Not really, it's the entire POINT of Tenebrium.

If you don't get that and just brush it off as "must be a bug/bad balance" then I can see why you would say the things you did in this thread.
But fact still remains, it's not a balance issue nor a bug.

That Tenebrium was Single/Double/Ranged all in one, THAT was a balance issue. And it has been fixed. I say 'thank Larian for that'...

Also for above poster saying points are wasted, nope; that was the old system where any not in Tenebrium were wasted. Now they're NOT wasted, and any of them still count when using Tenebrium weapons. So basically they fixed what you're complaiming about.
Which makes ME go 'whhhaaaaaat?'

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Weapon skill should be the important skill I completely agree, so that is a good fix, I agree that after investing points into a weapon that they should be valuable and relevant til endgame...but...

SO do we need 5 pts in Tenebrium? is maxing it to any benefit, 3 seems to allow adding it to other weapons is that and the ability to handle it without getting leprosy/radiation poisoning/rot the only benefit?

SO if I have 5 in a weapon skill and 5 in Tenebrium skill the 5 in Tenebrium skill does NOT improve damage? ALso does 5 skill in it improve the amount of damage bonus by adding Tenebrium to the weapon or is that related to players level?

SOrry I just need to be absolutely clear since I am getting ready to level up and I was going to improve the skills that I get the most mileage with.

I am fine with it not doing anything else just want to be sure it does not.

I actually dont think the game is terribly balanced in any aspect, I love it. Both before and after the latest patch. A for sure instant classic.

Thanks, not trying to be nit-picky or overanalysing.

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At the moment, there does not seem to be any benefit for increasing Tenebrium beyond 3. No extra damage, no increased damage from crafting using Tenebrium.


Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

Not really, it's the entire POINT of Tenebrium.


Actually I meant that perhaps more late-game enemies REGULAR ELEMENTAL RESISTANCES should be looked at.

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Thanks Stabbey.


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As far as I understand it, weapon skills only add to damage. Hit chances are governed by other attributes. And so, for most characters, I tend to put next to nothing into that skill, since other factors seem to be more important.

Right now I even have a mage holding his own when attacked directly without having invested even one skill point into weapon or man at arms. Armor and weapon bonusses take care of that.

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Yeah I know that Str determines hit chance for most melee weapons and dex the same for missile weapons and daggers.

But Seriously the fighter needs to max his chosen weapon skill to get the % damage bonus so do rogues or archers with their preferred weapon....but I never put any weapon skills on a mage since
any squishy character should never be in melee for any reason unless it wasnt planned in which case it is a tactical fail.

I was concerned that I was leaving a further damage bonus on the table by not taking Tenebrium to max level.

Otherwise yeah, I know.


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